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Alpha 24 name suggestions

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13 minutes ago, CrowsVeldt said:

Know any old names/words in Spanish that start with X?

Spanish are Castilian official language, that means in game timeframe doesn't exist.

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Spanish is a part of the Ibero-Romance group of languages, which evolved from several dialects of Vulgar Latin in Iberia after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century. The oldest Latin texts with traces of Spanish come from mid-northern Iberia in the 9th century,[10] and the first systematic written use of the language happened in Toledo, then capital of the Kingdom of Castile, in the 13th century. Beginning in the early 16th century, Spanish was taken to the viceroyalties of the Spanish Empire, most notably to the Americas, as well as territories in Africa, Oceania and the Philippines.[11]

 

Edited by Lion.Kanzen

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I'd like to stress that the "Ptolemaic" name Naukratis (alpha 14) is obviously not Egyptian, but Greek. The Egyptian name was Piemro. The "Ptolemaic" name Timosthenes [of Rhodes] (alpha 20) is obviosly also Greek and not Egyptian either... [Even the Celtic Loucetios sounds Hellenized...] This would mean that out of 23 alphas so far, we already have 10 Greek names... We have 13 civilizations in game, and 10 out of 23 alphas have been given Greek names... 

In addition to that we have 5 Latin (Roman) names... That makes at least 15 Greco-Roman names out of 23 alphas. But so far we have 6 Greek suggestions in this thread... I get it, Greeks were cool, but seriously... What the fudge...

How about finally merging Rise of the East with the main game and naming alpha 23 "Xiongnu"?

Edited by Sundiata
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10 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

I'd like to stress that the "Ptolemaic" name Naukratis (alpha 14) is obviously not Egyptian, but Greek. The Egyptian name was Piemro. The "Ptolemaic" name Timosthenes [of Rhodes] (alpha 20) is obviosly also Greek and not Egyptian either... [Even the Celtic Loucetios sounds Hellenized...] This would mean that out of 23 alphas so far, we already have 10 Greek names... We have 13 civilizations in game, and 10 out of 23 alphas have been given Greek names... 

In addition to that we have 5 Latin (Roman) names... That makes at least 15 Greco-Roman names out of 23 alphas. But so far we have 6 Greek suggestions in this thread... I get it, Greeks were cool, but seriously... What the fudge...

How about finally merging Rise of the East with the main game and naming alpha 23 "Xiongnu"?

Add Xiongnu 

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XESÚS   m   Galician
Galician form of JESUS, used as a personal name.

 

Fits well with the timeframe of the game :D

 

Terra Magna could use some of these:

 

XIADANI   f   Native American, Zapotec
Possibly means "the flower that arrived" in Zapotec.

XQUENDA   m & f   Native American, Zapotec
Means "spirit, soul, essence" in Zapotec.

Edited by coworotel

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51 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

[...] How about finally merging Terra Magna with the main game and naming alpha 23 "Xiongnu"?

 

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The reason for the Greco-Roman bias is because quite a lot has survived in Greek or Latin and very little in other languages. Furthermore, those sources are easier accessable and their names more familiar to us; e.g. Xerxes is the Latin spelling of a Greek name (Ξέρξης) of a Persian king (cuneiform was not accepted here ("The value entered includes a character that is not allowed such as an Emoji."), but it would be pronounced Khshayarsha). I agree more diversity would be nice, but I also think an appropiate name should be chosen, independent of previous names. I prefer a good name that happens to be Greek to an inferior one that is chosen just because it's not Greek.

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

How about finally merging Rise of the East with the main game and naming alpha 23 "Xiongnu"?

Zapotecs, no thanks. Xiongnu (Hsiung-nu) and Han China, yes please.

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2 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

Why the hate ? :p

Nothing personal, just that there were no trans-Atlantic exchanges in Antiquity :) In contrast, there is evidence the Han interacted with Parthians and Romans.

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13 minutes ago, Nescio said:

The reason for the Greco-Roman bias is because quite a lot has survived in Greek or Latin and very little in other languages.

That's actually not a relevant argument, is overly subjective and really isn't true when taking Persians, Egyptians, Kushites, Mauryans (and Chinese) into account... Why do you like to trigger me like that? lol! :P 

 

19 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Furthermore, those sources are easier accessable and their names more familiar to us

I don't believe in reinforcing historical biases. Greek and Roman history is super interesting, but so is a lot of other stuff that hardly anybody has ever heard of, for no other reason than Hollywood not making movies about it and high-school history curriculums still being stuck in 20th century narratives.

0AD offers amazing educational opportunities, illustrated by the addition of civs like the Kushites, Mauryans, Seleucids and Ptolemies. Civilizations that most people have never even heard of. The Xiongnu offer the same educational advantage, and the legacy of Xerxes and the Achaemenids has been thoroughly dragged through the mud by that unspeakable movie (who's name we shall not mention) which has had an incredible impact on popular culture. We can help in "righting those wrongs" with our historical roster, and more attention to the relevance of the most powerful civilizations never mentioned. 

We should be trend-setters, not followers. 

 

36 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

Why the hate ? :p

 

32 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Nothing personal, just that there were no trans-Atlantic exchanges in Antiquity

True. More importantly, stone-age warriors vs iron-age antiquity... would euhm, turn out ugly... Impossible to balance. They have no horses... Llama cavalry would be hilarious, but unhistorical... Quinquireme vs dugout canoes?

If we use a more flexible timeframe for the pre-Colombian civs (600 BC - 600 AD, why not, it's a separate game anyway), we could have a really cool collection of factions and add it as a "built in mod", like those AoE-expansions (except it actually comes pre-packed with the game, with an integrated button on the homescreen). add Zapotecs, together with Maya's, Olmecs, Moche and Teotihuacan... Would be absolutely delicious! 

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6 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

True. More importantly, stone-age warriors vs iron-age antiquity... would euhm, turn out ugly... Impossible to balance.

I mentioned the Zapotecs because there is a mod including them, or am I wrong? (Terra Magna?)

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38 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

That's actually not a relevant argument, is overly subjective and really isn't true when taking Persians, Egyptians, Kushites, Mauryans (and Chinese) into account... Why do you like to trigger me like that? lol! :P

Always feel free to take individual sentences out of context.

39 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

I don't believe in reinforcing historical biases.

Nor do I.

39 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Mauryans

Let's hope that can be corrected into Mauryas in A24.

40 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

the legacy of Xerxes and the Achaemenids has been thoroughly dragged through the mud by that unspeakable movie (who's name we shall not mention) which has had an incredible impact on popular culture.

300 is a fantasy film based upon a comic book series that does not claim in any way to be historically accurate. Or did you mean a different movie?

43 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

If we use a more flexible timeframe for the pre-Colombian civs (600 BC - 600 AD, why not, it's a separate game anyway), we could have a really cool collection of factions and add it as a "built in mod", like those AoE-expansions (except it actually comes pre-packed with the game, with an integrated button on the homescreen). add Zapotecs, together with Maya's, Olmecs, Moche and Teotihuacan... Would be absolutely delicious! 

A pre-Columbian mod (perhaps c. 1500 B.C. to c. 1500 A.D.) would be nice, but I object against including it by default. That another game violates realism doesn't mean we have to follow.

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1 hour ago, Nescio said:

A pre-Columbian mod (perhaps c. 1500 B.C. to c. 1500 A.D.) would be nice, but I object against including it by default. That another game violates realism doesn't mean we have to follow.

I concur.

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1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Always feel free to take individual sentences out of context.

I think your sentence was pretty straightforward... Not that I don't know you know these things, there just wasn't any real nuance in that statement or the argument it was supporting, namely that non-Greek or non-Roman names may be an "inferior" choice, or that a name may not be chosen because its Greek. That's the opposite what's happening. Greek and Roman names have been chosen in the past, because they were Greek and Roman (and therefore more widely known). Otherwise you wouldn't have 15 out of 23 Greek and Roman names. And now you're arguing to make it 16 out 24. It just furthers this self-enforcing illusion that there wasn't much going on outside of the Greco-Roman world. 

 

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Nor do I.

:) 

 

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Let's hope that can be corrected into Mauryas in A24.

Yes...

 

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

300 is a fantasy film based upon a comic book series that does not claim in any way to be historically accurate. Or did you mean a different movie?

But that doesn't have any bearing on its impact on popular culture or what people think of the history behind Sparta and the Persians. It may be fantasy but its obviously based on (a distortion of) historical events. Yes, people should read more for themselves, but they just don't, which turns these popular distortions into popular reality. 

 

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

A pre-Columbian mod (perhaps c. 1500 B.C. to c. 1500 A.D.) would be nice, but I object against including it by default. That another game violates realism doesn't mean we have to follow.

With "violates realism", do you mean anachronism in civilizations from an extended timeframe? 

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1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

I think your sentence was pretty straightforward... Not that I don't know you know these things, there just wasn't any real nuance in that statement or the argument it was supporting, namely that non-Greek or non-Roman names may be an "inferior" choice, or that a name may not be chosen because its Greek. That's the opposite what's happening. Greek and Roman names have been chosen in the past, because they were Greek and Roman (and therefore more widely known). Otherwise you wouldn't have 15 out of 23 Greek and Roman names.

The sentence you quoted was an explanation, not a justification. I don't see what's subjective about merely pointing out the fact that we have book-shelves full of Greek and Latin texts. Etruscan? Thousands of inscriptions of less than three words,  but only one text, which was preserved because it was recycled as mummy wrapping. Iberian? Not even enough to determine how it relates to other languages. Celtic? Mostly names, many of which were preserved in Roman sources. Illyrian? Macedonian? Thracian? Enough to determine they were Indo-European, but that's about it. Etc.

Because so much more has survived in Greek and Latin means it's perfectly understandable that those are "over-represented". That doesn't imply that's good or bad.

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

And now you're arguing to make it 16 out 24.

No, I'm not. The best name should be chosen. Language shouldn't matter, nor should previous choices.

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

It just furthers this self-enforcing illusion that there wasn't much going on outside of the Greco-Roman world.

Much more must have been going on outside rather than inside the Greco-Roman world. The problem is we know so tantalizing little because of a scarcity of sources. Nor were Greeks and Romans overall superior; in some ways, yes, they were more advanced, in many others they were not.

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

With "violates realism", do you mean anachronism in civilizations from an extended timeframe? 

No, anachronisms we have already, they are unavoidable. The civilizations currently included have had or could have had interactions with at least some of the others included, so all factions are part of a single network. I'm in favour of including Chinese because they're arguably part of the Eurasian continuum. I'm opposed to including American (or Australian) civilizations because they did not and could not have interacted with the civilizations already in game. But I suppose this discussion is actually off-topic.

 

 

To return to my point, let's not discount or favour candidates because of the language. Nor should previous results matter.

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Agreed with Nescio.  The simple fact is that Greece (and Rome) had a large impact on the Western civilisation.  Even the Ptolemies were essentially Greeks in Egypt.  It is just very easy to confuse that fact since the building set, while having a nice aesthetic, is a gross misrepresentation of their Hellenistic culture, instead looking like they were from the New Kingdom.  That aside, it is difficult to find many historically significant events or people in history that did not come from Greek words. I would propose Xiphomachaira, or ξιφομαχαιρα, a curved Greek sword.  This could be a nice way of highlighting new helmet and weapon variations introduced into the game.  Obviously it's basically just xiphos with a few letters added on, but I think that it provides bit more nuance.

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@Nescio, thanks for clarifying. I do understand what you mean, I'm just saying it simply doesn't apply to some of the civs in our game, like the Persians, Mauryas (see how I spelled it correctly this time :P), Kushites, Egyptians (under Ptolemaic dynasty Egyptian was still the most widely spoken) and Chinese. And our lack of written records from other civilizations doesn't preclude a relevant name associated with them either. For example if we'd go for an Oriental inclusion: "Xiongnu"... 

Or we could go with "Xiyu" Han Chinese for "Western Regions", an area fought over with the Xiongnu and paramount for control over the silk-road, connecting everything in the Eurasian sphere together).

Quote

Under the Han dynasty, Xinjiang was known as Xiyu (西域), meaning "Western Regions". Between the 2nd century BCE and 2nd century CE the Han dynasty established the Protectorate of the Western Regions or Xiyu Protectorate (西域都護府) in an effort to secure the profitable routes of the Silk Road.[12]

 

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

I'm opposed to including American (or Australian) civilizations because they did not and could not have interacted with the civilizations already in game. But I suppose this discussion is actually off-topic.

Oh, that's not what I meant. I meant that they can be included as a standalone expansion: click a button on the home-screen and it goes to Terra Magna with the option to play with those civs (not with the other civs). It would just be cool if it was included by default. Separate, but part of the main game/download. Sorry for going off topic..

 

29 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Agreed with Nescio.  The simple fact is that Greece (and Rome) had a large impact on the Western civilisation.  Even the Ptolemies were essentially Greeks in Egypt.  It is just very easy to confuse that fact since the building set, while having a nice aesthetic, is a gross misrepresentation of their Hellenistic culture, instead looking like they were from the New Kingdom.  That aside, it is difficult to find many historically significant events or people in history that did not come from Greek words. I would propose Xiphomachaira, or ξιφομαχαιρα, a curved Greek sword.  This could be a nice way of highlighting new helmet and weapon variations introduced into the game.  Obviously it's basically just xiphos with a few letters added on, but I think that it provides bit more nuance.

But the game portrays more than Western civilizations. I agree that the Ptolemaic building set is probably our least historical and definitely needs Hellenistic infusion (weren't lorgdoods' updated house-models committed?). That having said, for the most part Egypt remained Egyptian, and outside of the main Greek centers of Alexandria, Naukratis and Ptolemais Hermiou, things would have still looked decidedly Egyptian, very similar to the New Kingdom (not Greek). And the in-game models definitely don't look like New-Kingdom houses either (they're fantasy, I believe inspired by Age of Mythology). 

"it is difficult to find many historically significant events or people in history that did not come from Greek words", There's a lot of Greek stuff, sure, but there's a lot of non-Greek stuff as well. Persians, Egyptians/Nile Valley, Indians and Chinese all have extensive written records... Stuff that people just barely mention because they keep running circles in the Mediterranean. I don't see why we should continue that trend. 16 out of 24 is just a little... Much...

Edited by Sundiata

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Also, why is the Wildfire Games logo the Chinese character for "fire"?

How could there be any resistance to including the Chinese as a playable civilization when the actual logo of Wildfire Games is CHINESE??? 

Spoiler

WildfireGames.png.7ed8010ee3cb8062868853da9a4011de.png

639791396_ScreenShot2018-05-18at17_53_30.thumb.png.4aa2f4fd54c69ccc6724ae7968b32f7d.png

 

"But we don't want the Chinese in the standard game" 

 

275b3850c0ebe520fcaf6a4a3062e0d9.jpg.a178205c69295a9c74e425d267d8297c.jpg

That logo features in like, every official promotional video...

Edited by Sundiata
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42 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

I would propose Xiphomachaira, or ξιφομαχαιρα, a curved Greek sword.  This could be a nice way of highlighting new helmet and weapon variations introduced into the game.  Obviously it's basically just xiphos with a few letters added on, but I think that it provides bit more nuance.

Interesting. A xiphos is a true sword, double-edged, symmetrical, useful for stabbing. A kopis or machaira (Xenophon uses both words as equivalents) is a sabre or sword-knife, single-edged, curved or straight, useful for cutting. Now I don't know what to make of a xipho-machaira, it seems a bit of an oxymoron to me.

20 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Oh, that's not what I meant. I meant that they can be included as a standalone expansion: click a button on the home-screen and it goes to Terra Magna with the option to play with those civs (not with the other civs). It would just be cool if it was included by default. Separate, but part of the main game/download. Sorry for going off topic..

Stand-alone expansion and official mods can be published at mod.io (that's what it is for, right?), but should not be installed by default. Including content that's not used is not a good idea.

11 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Also, why is the Wildfire Games logo the Chinese character for "fire"?

There is nothing wrong with that, I hope?

12 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

How could there be any resistance to including the Chinese as a playable civilization when the actual logo of Wildfire Games is CHINESE???

 

You know I'd welcome the inclusion of the Han, but I don't see what the logo of Wildfire Games has to do with it. Or with the name of the next release.

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35 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Also, why is the Wildfire Games logo the Chinese character for "fire"?

How could there be any resistance to including the Chinese as a playable civilization when the actual logo of Wildfire Games is CHINESE??? 

  Reveal hidden contents

That logo features in like, every official promotional video...

I can't remember if it's the 0ad logo or this one but one of them is from a starwars font :P

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35 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Stand-alone expansion and official mods can be published at mod.io (that's what it is for, right?), but should not be installed by default. Including content that's not used is not a good idea.

Obviously the point is that the content would be used... A lot more than if it were a mod, actually more appropriately a relevant civilization pack that might as well be added. I imagine mod.io to be used for more comprehensive mods like Hyrule, or pro-balance mods, or testing-new-features mods on a larger scale. I have no problem whatsoever with it being published to mod.io, as an introduction/testing, but if it's found to be of good quality/liked, why not add a Pre-Columbian civ-pack as a built in extra? Separate from the other civs for obvious reasons.

 

35 minutes ago, Nescio said:

There is nothing wrong with that, I hope?

Of course not...

 

35 minutes ago, Nescio said:

You know I'd welcome the inclusion of the Han, but I don't see what the logo of Wildfire Games has to do with it. Or with the name of the next release.

You don't see the irony? 

The logo of the game developer is Chinese. We have a complete and historical Chinese civ lying on the shelf.

Yet,

Chinese names won't be accepted for the next release ... because there's no Chinese in the standard game... 

It's like, AAAARGH?!?! 

 

 

Edited by Sundiata
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