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A while ago I wrote a concept for making playing Sparta seem more thematic through redesigning some of its core mechanics, giving it distinct early, middle, and late game options to explore.  As the response was…not too responsive, I haven’t bothered refining it.

 

Regardless, I want hopefully continue the conversation of increasing the options various factions offer from one game to the next by turning to the subject of Persia, which I find to be misrepresented.  First I’d like to first explain the organisation of the Persian army.  The numerical majority of forces in the army were provincial levies.  These forces were typically not very disciplined and would serve as cannon fodder in many cases.  The second kind of soldiers were practically a professional force that mainly consisted of Persians, Immortals.  They were infantry, consisting of 10,000 men of which 1,000 were an elite force called Apple-Bearers, the best.  In general, this force was a capable army, but the Apple-Bearers were the greatest of them (As a source, I would recommend reading “Immortals and Apple Bearers: Towards a Better Understanding of Achaemid Infantry Units” by Michael B. Charles.).  Finally, the nobility formed arguably the best of the Persian military: the cavalry.  

Thus, having established this, I would propose that there be a provincial barracks.  This would serve to train the levies, who would work as citizen-soldiers.  Since they would never be professional and drill often, these units should not accrue experience.  Their role should be primarily economic, but also should be excellent for dying for the greater good.  

The Immortal infantry would have two modes, archer and spearman.  Hypothetically it could just be a unit that can switch between weapons.  Either way, they should be able to beat most  citizen soldier infantry, but be beaten by other champion infantry in straight fights.  Their advantage would lie in decent reliability alongside multi-purpose roles.  Naturally, being a standing army, immortals would be of the champion class.  The Apple-bearer could be a number of things.  For instance, Immortals could gradually gain experience until they promote into them.  Alternatively, they could be a specialised unit that only is trained in one building.  Either way, the Apple-Bearer's role should be roughly identical to that of the Immortal, only being much better at it. 

Finally, cavalry would remain largely the way they are, possibly starting at level two at the cost of a longer training time to reflect their elitism.  

Thanks for reading my ideas on the subject, and I'd like to know yours.
 

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41 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

The provincial barracks would be some kind of mercenary camp ?

I would not think so more local training point for provincial levies as the levies are not mercs.

Enjoy the Choice :)

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Thorfinn did mention that they should be citizen-soldiers but restricted in rank advancement and be primarily economic and canon fodder units.Since they can do the economic support role they can not be mercs as mercs can not preform as economic units.

Enjoy the Choice :)

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Valid point, wow.  The concept I was going after was having two kinds of barracks: one for provincials and the other for immortals.  In my opinion Immortal production feels restricted with only one building.  The training time can be reduced at the cost of a technology, but that decreases the quality of immortals as well.  Immortals should be easier to mass despite a higher cost.  One of the appeals I find to it being a provincial barracks is the introduction of different levies from across the empire, which are described in vivid detail by Herodotus.  An archery range could be a requirement for levying archers.  The thing I find appealing is the idea of training Ethiopian longbowmen, Bactrian axemen, or Lydian javelinists.  All of them had unique apparel that should be evident to player, and putting them into a barracks that gives a basis for that would potentially be a good way of explaining why they look so different.  To an extent, it's like Carthage's embassies put into one place.  Granted, it would be possible to simply have a provincial barracks, archery range, and stable.  

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Including a wider variety of units is why core game should look at DEs mercenary camp feature. In it, I provide Persia with Kardakes hoplites, Mercenary Greek hoplites, Kardakes skirmishers, and Scythian Horse Archers. I was thinking of closing one of their unit type gaps by possibly including Nubian Swordsmen too. The Anatolian Skirmisher citizen soldier in the game could cover the Lydian Skirmisher you mention, though I am sure that unit needs reskinned and propped for accuracy. 

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In addition, in Xenophon's Cyrus the Great, he mentions towers on wheels, from which soldiers could shoot arrows or fire javelins. Is leaving out Persian siege towers a deliberate balance design, an oversight, or just something not implemented yet?

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On 2/24/2018 at 4:09 PM, Loki1950 said:

I would not think so more local training point for provincial levies as the levies are not mercs.

Enjoy the Choice :)

natives auxiliary... Yes from PoV is same. See AoE III and  my proposal where DE have some roots.

Spoiler

Resultado de imagen para mayan settlements aoe 3

Resultado de imagen para mayan settlements aoe 3

image.jpeg.5b2d063e86e3db81511b4d27b032ab84.jpeg

Resultado de imagen para Settlements aoe 3

Resultado de imagen para Settlements aoe 3

 

 

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2 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

natives auxiliary... Yes from PoV is same. See AoE III and  my proposal where DE have some roots.

  Hide contents

Resultado de imagen para mayan settlements aoe 3

Yeah, exactly. I'm already starting to add "Native" merc camps on many maps. 

A "Native" merc camp allows you to train units local to that map location. "Faction" merc camps are those that let you train mercs specific to your faction.

Spoiler

y2a1QtU.jpg

gHdYQp5.jpg

 

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2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Yeah, exactly. I'm already starting to add "Native" merc camps on many maps. 

A "Native" merc camp allows you to train units local to that map location. "Faction" merc camps are those that let you train mercs specific to your faction.

  Reveal hidden contents

y2a1QtU.jpg

gHdYQp5.jpg

 

yes , that my next move.

 is possible make official patch for vanilla? @Nescio you can?

We agree with these Camps in the past.

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12 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Just another barracks to build doesn't interest me, to be honest. But others may disagree! :) 

Well, they are special barracks because you make mixed units (cav, infantry, ranged), expensive and limited. The thing that seems to me a little weird that faction specific mercs camping outside your territory.

But of course the concept in the neutral ground it's more interesting.

Edited by av93
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Mercenary system huh...(?)

Well.

We have auxiliary armies of colonizing levies.

The Military Settlement

Resultado de imagen para military settlement 0 ad colony seleucid

 

Neutral local natives or Mercenary camp

Resultado de imagen para Mercenary camp delenda est

Embassies.

image.png.cd351d63df1c9bc27154e22d48eaa62b.png

Next level must be Levies/Auxiliary:

image.png.f5845b59059eb326f15f454590b96738.png 

Edited by Lion.Kanzen

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On 7/16/2019 at 7:19 AM, Lion.Kanzen said:

yes , that my next move.

 is possible make official patch for vanilla? @Nescio you can?

We agree with these Camps in the past.

If there is clear consensus how and what is to be done, then I suppose I could. However, there is quite a review queue on phabricator already and I already have dozens of patches open, so I'm a bit reluctant to add another one right now.

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What about if macedonian capture this building. (?)

ad5a9965639575aa726871ab970b7333.png

Quote

Pantodapoi Phalangitai are the standard levy of the Seleukidos Kingdom and others influenced by the Diadochoi, including Pontos. They are tough and reliable infantry, but are prone to rebellion and discontent, and are hence more expensive than their Makedonian contemporaries. They are mostly levies of Ioudaioi, Syrioi, and Persai descent that are co-opted into the army. They fight as pikemen, with a soft leather cuirass, pikes, round Illyrian style shields and Phrygian caps. This makes them a viable pike unit, though they are less disciplined and more prone to flee than more reliable Hellenes and Makedones that make up the Pezhetairoi. They can be counted upon to present a solid wall of spear points to the enemy, but their lack of discipline and intensive training makes them even more prone to a flanking attack.

Resultado de imagen para takabara persian

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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