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LordGood

Hellenizing the Ptolemies

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On 2/24/2019 at 9:02 PM, LordGood said:

here's with the desaturated kushite set

screenshot0053.png

Okay there is some serious winning going on in this thread. I think if you just lift your hands magically and stop touching those models, and just commit them as they are on this picture, then we FIXED the Ptolemaic walls.

Just as long as those "player colour bands" are as thin as they can reasonably be - the more "sandstone-colour" dominates the facades of walls and towers, the better, and more realistic!

1000/1000 points!

Edited by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates
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AWESOME. @wackyserious @wowgetoffyourcellphone 

Maybe make the whole thing white so it resembles a simpler version (without visible metal beyond the helmet) of these later cataphracts. But it certainly makes more sense to conceive of their padding as a one-piece-garment placed over an amour of lighter or heavier nature - the question of that nature can be conveniently ignored since it cannot be seen.

_-Wp5YuI.jpg

Edited by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates
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1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

But it certainly makes more sense to conceive of their padding as a one-piece-garment placed over an amour of lighter or heavier nature - the question of that nature can be conveniently ignored since it cannot be seen.

Indeed. Evidences from different era and cultures point in the direction of one piece armour in fabric. 

https://journals.openedition.org/cy/3293

Edited by Genava55
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3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

mmmm nah. lol

Will not put player color on it, haha :LOL:

I will ask Sundiata if it could be used for the Kushites

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8 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Some stuff from the guys at Divide et Impera. Thoughts on this?

I'm not sure. they mention similar padded gambeson armor.

iuM6f9E.jpg

the look or representation is my doubt.

 

 

 

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Spoiler

RJdKWpd.jpg

Quote

Puh, i used many, and i think that i still dont saw them all. Mostly i made use of excavation reports of the numerous sites. 
The most important ones are:

- Laszlo Török: "Meroe City: An Ancient African Capital. John Garstang's Excavations in the Sudan", 1997 
- C. Leonard Wooley&Randall Maciver: "Karanog. The Romano-Nubian Cemetry", 1910
- Dows Dunham: "Royal Tombs at Meroe and Barkal", 1957
- Dows Dunham: "The Royal Cemetries of Kush. The West and South Cemetries at Meroe", 1963
- Bruce Beyer Williams: "Meroitic Remains from Qustul Cemetry Q, Ballana Cemetry B, and a Ballana Settlement", 1991


Beside excavation reports i also made use of relief collections from specific sites. The three most important ones by far are these ones (Sadly they are all only available on German): 

- Fritz Hintze: "Musawwarat es Sufra. Der Löwentempel. Tafelband", 1971
- Ingrid Gamer Waller&Karola Zibelius-Chen: "Der Löwentempel von Naq’a in der Butan (Sudan)", 1983
- Friedrich Hinkel: "Der Tempelkomplex Meroe 250", 2001

 

full armor hum... @Sundiata I never see the source of these.

 

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?704397-UNITS-The-Kingdom-of-Kush

 

Edited by Lion.Kanzen

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16 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

@LordGood Commit ?

I thought this had been committed long ago? I mean why make suche excellent progress not to commit.

@stanislas69 Too yellow, see image of @LordGood top of Page 3 here, between the yellow colour and "white-grey". That is also the colour of the Pharos and Ptolemaic stone structures in general. A blend of that exact colour and a few, older ( =more yellowed) structures. Friends, you all need to check out Ptolemaic structure literature referenced so amply, alternatively just look at ( =google Taposiris Magna Osiris Temple and ptolemaic tombs etc) extant fragments and tombs recently uncovered that have not been so yellowed - truth is in-between friends!

Egypt_tomb_01.jpg.b64120e1fed79ba7a80dc72d14df1b13.jpgEgypt_tomb_02.jpg.95f6c6b47e4380ced4b6545b8a54ca26.jpg24674302632_3db461a050_b.thumb.jpg.c32d528add85debf7bf59db752f37164.jpg3273982144_a70c0965c7_b.thumb.jpg.6726ecefc31364f16e67e6fb961c0397.jpg41142176231_2ef501d9e2_b.thumb.jpg.fbc3cda3005b215ee5c5103005444573.jpgNorth_View_of_Taposiris_Magna_Osiris_Temple.thumb.jpg.d82d35680e210ae928d8f30711827848.jpg1114380676_ALEXANDRIATOMB2.png.fff96e458bc44fc246a4f5e632cbf90e.png

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14 hours ago, wackyserious said:

@Sundiata Could be used for the Kushites?

Yes-ish, but not that type... 

This type:

13 hours ago, Genava55 said:

image.png.a351306565db354de8c36203068a75de.png

This is the correct type that saw widespread use in Sudan (and other countries of the East and West African Sahel regions) until the 19th century. The written sources from antiquity are limited to the passage that's quoted with your link, so the evidence is a bit thin, which is why I didn't make a big deal about excluding Kushite cataphracts with quilted cotton armor from the roster. Either way, I'm quite convinced that they used them because of the popularity of that armor in Sudan in later times, and the spread and widespread use of this armour among pre-Islamic peoples of the East and West African Sahel/Savannah. It seems obvious to me that this is in fact the armour referred to by Agatharchides (this example is Sudanese):

museum_1325302048.thumb.jpg.6c2099cd5b356ac38d76473e681f14fd.jpg 

"he distributed to them and their horses garments of felt, which those of that country (Kush) call kasas, that conceal the whole body except for the eyes."

It wouldn't be the only type of cloth armour (or weapon) from Antiquity that survived intact into the 19th century. Those wrapped linen/cotton corselets for example were used in Sudan as late as the Mahdist revolution!

Kushite examples of possible quilted cotton armour:

353525165_KingdomofKushKushitequiltedcottonarmor.thumb.jpg.76703591826f4ab99d3be9d34103a115.jpg

 

Compare to the riders of Bagirmi (Sultanate of Bagirmi extended into Western Sudan...)

denham9.thumb.jpg.3885917338308ce99eeeb83b8d46d904.jpg

 

18 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

But it certainly makes more sense to conceive of their padding as a one-piece-garment placed over an amour of lighter or heavier nature

Although quilted cotton is capable of stopping arrows, which is why it was so important for African cavalry armies facing archery heavy opponents, you are essentially correct. In the above images of the riders of Bagirmi, the riders are actually wearing an Iron cuirass underneath it:

440914849_Africanironcuirass.jpg.40e978fac506c31f7ba433467953a940.jpg

 

10 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

probably more like this.

Not exactly.. See above

 

10 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

full armor hum... @Sundiata I never see the source of these.

There are 2 depictions of full body scale armour, both of them belonging to Kushite kings. Definitely seems limited to royalty. The scale armour corselet is much more frequently depicted, usually on gods. Probably wasn't widespread among the common folk either which is why both types are only represented among Champions and Heroes in our roster. 

179087297_detailfromthePylonofthePyramidTempleofKingTarekeniwalphotograph.thumb.jpg.cab3ccb3b363b1c7ffd0ce151f42b2e5.jpg

Detail from the Pylon of the pyramid chapel of King Tarekeniwal. Open image and zoom in to see the details (we have this armour in-game already for one of the heroes)

 

10 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Although the sources themselves are excellent (I've gone through them before), the interpretation is a little lackluster. The artists reused some of the assets from other cultures. Our assets are custom made, and in my humble opinion, far better... For example they used Celtic chariots from the British Isles for the Kushites (or that was perhaps another TW mod)... We have a proper Nile Valley chariot :P The use of those bronze Aspides is entirely conjectural.. Use of zebra print although I have yet to see a single depiction of a zebra or it's print in any primary source relating to Kush. Use of the Thureos shield is entirely speculative. Sleeveless quilted cotton armour is something I've never seen in Africa. Their units don't look Sudanese. They look like Romans with a darkened skin or something. To be fair, their depiction of the Kushite army was probably the most accurate one in the gaming industry, untill we came along :P And the Kushites in the newer, official Desert Kingdoms culture pack have way more blatant historical inaccuracies... So credit is due. Ancient Empires actually did a very decent job. We just did it better...  :rolleyes:

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9 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Yes-ish, but not that type... 

This type:

This is the correct type that saw widespread use in Sudan (and other countries of the East and West African Sahel regions) until the 19th century. The written sources from antiquity are limited to the passage that's quoted with your link, so the evidence is a bit thin, which is why I didn't make a big deal about excluding Kushite cataphracts with quilted cotton armor from the roster. Either way, I'm quite convinced that they used them because of the popularity of that armor in Sudan in later times, and the spread and widespread use of this armour among pre-Islamic peoples of the East and West African Sahel/Savannah. It seems obvious to me that this is in fact the armour referred to by Agatharchides (this example is Sudanese):

museum_1325302048.thumb.jpg.6c2099cd5b356ac38d76473e681f14fd.jpg 

"he distributed to them and their horses garments of felt, which those of that country (Kush) call kasas, that conceal the whole body except for the eyes."

It wouldn't be the only type of cloth armour (or weapon) from Antiquity that survived intact into the 19th century. Those wrapped linen/cotton corselets for example were used in Sudan as late as the Mahdist revolution!

Kushite examples of possible quilted cotton armour:

353525165_KingdomofKushKushitequiltedcottonarmor.thumb.jpg.76703591826f4ab99d3be9d34103a115.jpg

 

Compare to the riders of Bagirmi (Sultanate of Bagirmi extended into Western Sudan...)

denham9.thumb.jpg.3885917338308ce99eeeb83b8d46d904.jpg

 

Although quilted cotton is capable of stopping arrows, which is why it was so important for African cavalry armies facing archery heavy opponents, you are essentially correct. In the above images of the riders of Bagirmi, the riders are actually wearing an Iron cuirass underneath it:

440914849_Africanironcuirass.jpg.40e978fac506c31f7ba433467953a940.jpg

 

Not exactly.. See above

 

There are 2 depictions of full body scale armour, both of them belonging to Kushite kings. Definitely seems limited to royalty. The scale armour corselet is much more frequently depicted, usually on gods. Probably wasn't widespread among the common folk either which is why both types are only represented among Champions and Heroes in our roster. 

179087297_detailfromthePylonofthePyramidTempleofKingTarekeniwalphotograph.thumb.jpg.cab3ccb3b363b1c7ffd0ce151f42b2e5.jpg

Detail from the Pylon of the pyramid chapel of King Tarekeniwal. Open image and zoom in to see the details (we have this armour in-game already for one of the heroes)

 

Although the sources themselves are excellent (I've gone through them before), the interpretation is a little lackluster. The artists reused some of the assets from other cultures. Our assets are custom made, and in my humble opinion, far better... For example they used Celtic chariots from the British Isles for the Kushites (or that was perhaps another TW mod)... We have a proper Nile Valley chariot :P The use of those bronze Aspides is entirely conjectural.. Use of zebra print although I have yet to see a single depiction of a zebra or it's print in any primary source relating to Kush. Use of the Thureos shield is entirely speculative. Sleeveless quilted cotton armour is something I've never seen in Africa. Their units don't look Sudanese. They look like Romans with a darkened skin or something. To be fair, their depiction of the Kushite army was probably the most accurate one in the gaming industry, untill we came along :P And the Kushites in the newer, official Desert Kingdoms culture pack have way more blatant historical inaccuracies... So credit is due. Ancient Empires actually did a very decent job. We just did it better...  :rolleyes:

yes i guess that but you are the expert.

-----

I saw some photos of the units you share  too but i forgot where.

 

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4 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

I thought this had been committed long ago? I mean why make suche excellent progress not to commit.

@stanislas69 Too yellow, see image of @LordGood top of Page 3 here, between the yellow colour and "white-grey".

Lack of time mostly.

Yeah but the ptolemies are "too yellow" Making them whitewashed like the kushites would reduce the difference between them. A decision has to be taken.

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3 hours ago, Sundiata said:

They look like Romans with a darkened skin or something. T

Roman Yuenzhi (Hellenized) lol. check Yuenzhi armor.

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18 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

Lack of time mostly.

Yeah but the ptolemies are "too yellow" Making them whitewashed like the kushites would reduce the difference between them. A decision has to be taken.

Dear friends, we cannot sacrifice reality for faction distinguishability; suggestion:

How about making the ptolemies distinguishable by hellenizing them? :D just a loving friendly suggestion

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On 5/3/2019 at 7:29 AM, stanislas69 said:

Yeah but the ptolemies are "too yellow" Making them whitewashed like the kushites would reduce the difference between them. A decision has to be taken.

I think, like with the Greek civs, there is supposed to be some (minor) overlap between the models of Kushites and Ptolemies (only having a few "Ancient Egyptian" style house variants for both of them would be good enough in my opinion). Ptolemies are very distinguishable as is, and if Lordgood continues his Hellenization project, I'm sure they will continue to be more than distinguishable enough from other Greek civs and Kushites alike, for the man knows what he's doing :P I think the slightly desaturated textures that Wow is using look excellent. 

Edited by Sundiata
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On 5/2/2019 at 12:45 PM, wackyserious said:

@Sundiata Could be used for the Kushites?

From Preview: Medewi 2.0, a TW mod (ignore every other unit in that roster... Way too much conjecture/speculation and plain wrong equipment)

15369181_SipesiyeMrekecopy.thumb.jpg.e9bc024d4e432d5e92f5b1a5a97c17d5.jpg

This unit didn't actually look so bad. I actually quite like it. Quilted cotton armour for the rider should have long sleeves, and extend down to as low as the knees. Quilted cotton armour for the horse shouldn't extend to their heads. 

Edited by Sundiata
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Dear friends, especially @LordGood and fellow hellenizers!

I wanted to post these fresco paintings preserved admirably at Pompeii, to show a confirmation of my previous suggestions and give further insights to enhance realism. (There were 7 other images but they refused to upload...............)
The cult of Isis spread through the ancient world from Alexandria, and therefore it is not surprising that we see Alexandrian and Ptolemaic ensembles in these fresco paintings. We find obelisks, free-standing altars, gilt draperies, towers, monuments, characteristic rounded roofs and so many features of Ptolemaic palace and sanctuary architecture - these buildings I had forgotten to post earlier.

There is a ramp, harbour fronts and some very large palaces - this could be the ramp type used for the huge ramp of the Pharos, and the palaces and harbour front could very well represent the famous city of Alexandria. Regardless of whether they actually show Alexandria, the architecture is pure Ptolemaic, and I consider that my previous efforts are completed and no further visual evidence is needed to authentically hellenize the Ptolemies.
[Which includes removing 'Disney's aladdin' features like carpets and striped marquises, which in these as in all other supplied visual sources are conspicuously absent; place a drapery-style sun-marquise held by two sticks at entrances where it makes sense (see tower below).]

Now we just need someone to confirm the standardized Greek transliteration I proposed, so we can finish this chapter. Who can we ask to look at that? Kind greetings ΑΝΑΞΑΝΔΡΙΔΑΣ
 

Pompeii_-_Temple_of_Isis_1_-_MAN.jpg

Isis_Pompeya_17.JPG

59654820_1472015719607093_6907141236918845440_n.jpg

59790791_1472015789607086_3184448646296895488_n.jpg

60218992_1472015769607088_8192501382402539520_n.jpg

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Naples_National_Archaeological_Museum_(14562895966).jpg

 

Fresco_depicting_Isis_receiving_Io_(a_Naiad_nymph_of_the_Argive)_at_Canopus,_1st_century_AD,_Pompian_Style_III,_Naples_National_Archaeological_Museum_(14399361909).jpg

Fourth_Style_wall_painting_with_naumachia_(triremes),_a_detail_from_a_panel_from_the_portico_of_the_Temple_of_Isis_in_Pompeii,_Naples_National_Archaeological_Museum_(14606067613).jpg

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Fresco_Isis_Nápoles_35.jpg

Edited by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates
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