wowgetoffyourcellphone's gameplay design

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I. Have. Working. Merc. Camps. In. DE. There is no need to wait until part 2 unless by choice.

 

Is part of combat system feature.

 

[Alekusu]

Sooooooooooo it took me 1h30 to read all this topic!

I'll give my humble opinion on some of the points discussed:

1)      I tried Delenda Est (did 5 games) and I really love it. It has a deeper strategic dimension with all the choices for the upgrades, the fact that you can build storehouse/farmstead/farms outside of your territory (do you take the risk to send women to that juicy fruits in the middle of the map? That’s the kind of questions you want to ask yourself once playing an RTS)

2)      About battalions:

   a.  The “problem” of the pop cap is a fake problem but I’m not going to go back to this matter

   b.  I played BFME2 in very high competition (I played on clanwars.cc, my clan reached top 10 almost every month for a year and I was top 10 a few months in a row individually, at that time the best clan was JR for those who remembers)

Well let me tell you one thing, battalion doesn’t remove micro management, competitive games were all about micro-management while keeping your farms up and running. A lot of harass from the beginning etc..
Of course watching Slayer_Boxer on starcraft micro-managing his marines individually perfectly was awesome but maybe it’s one of the reason you have so many players who actually watch the game more than they play (because they cannot reach that awesomeness)

   c.   Beating very hard IA has nothing to do with all of this.

   d.      Is it very hard to implement? I’d love to try it on 0AD actually, it would end this discussion quickly

3)      About citizen soldiers

   a.       That’s one of the reason I love so much 0AD but we can improve it obviously

   b.      I think the main problem is what Darc said, you are actually loosing resources when attacking. But what if women gathered all ressrouces faster (how much faster need to be decided) than citizen soldiers? That way you can boom with women but be vulnerable to a citizen-soldier rush (and the citizen soldier rush would lose against a mix of women / citizen-soldier early game with a few wood towers) and then we have the rush > boom > turtle > rush base.

4)      I love the general concept of strong core, weak country side. In terms of strategy it’s very nice, and it is realistic. And the fact that you can actually choose that your second settlement with be your core if you focus buildings on it is very nice too.

5)      Not sure about the slave, I think citizen, soldier-gatherers, champions and heroes are enough for a good gameplay.

6)      I already told wow privately, I do not like 4 phases. I didn’t like it on age of empires too. I like having three phases on the vanilla game (the problem at the moment is that phase 2 became useless due to the fact that you can’t harass anything before reaching phase 3 (with a few exceptions of course) and you can actually see this in multiplayer game where everybody just makes 4 towers phase 1 then upgrade those phase 2 to go directly to phase 3 (so basically skip phase2)). I think having phase 1 to build your economy, phase 2 for trading/expanding/military (Should be the longest phase imo) and phase 3 for late game stuff is good.

Anyway this is a very exciting topic!

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5) In Delenda Est, play as the Principate Romans to see a "proof of concept" for the slave vs. citizen concept.

6) Phase 4 in DE is a lot different than what I propose here in this thread for the main game. In DE, Phase IV is more about gaining access to those high level upgrades to help break a stalemate or dominate your opponents. Reaching phase IV isn't necessary for victory, as I imagine most "competitive" games playing DE would end in phase 3, like in Age of Empires games. No, Phase IV in this proposal is much different, it's more about designating one of your provinces your "Capital", and thus gaining some very special advantages for this province. Only one province can be the capital, and it's achieved by building a wonder inside its territory.

 

1 hour ago, Alekusu said:

Well let me tell you one thing, battalion doesn’t remove micro management, competitive games were all about micro-management while keeping your farms up and running. A lot of harass from the beginning etc..

 

I agree, it's not about "removing" micromanagement, it's about changing its nature, from that of micromanaging the movements of every single little soldier, to managing the movements and attacks of groups of soldiers. It's a much different feel. It also moves management from the single-soldier mosh pit style to the tactical placement, charging, standing ground, etc. of the mass combat that defines the era of the game.  The player can feel like he or she is commanding a battle instead of MCing a rave.

Edited May 9, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Alekusu]

5) Ok I will try that
6) Ok I see your point better
 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 minutes ago, Alekusu said:

6) Ok I see your point better

Yeah, in this proposal each Civic Center casts its own province. Each province has its own independent phase based on the number of buildings built in the province. So, your core province, mid-game, could be at phase III, while your outer provinces are only at phase I or II. Phase IV, "Capital City"  would be a special designation for one of your provinces by building a Wonder inside it. We could give any number or types of bonuses for this Capital province, like economy, training, researching, or all of the above. I can see your empire like a series of bubbles clustered together, the ones nearer the center being bigger, the ones on the edge being smaller.

Edited May 9, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Alekusu]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone

I tried the Principate Romans!
Well not sure what to think about it, it's a really different gameplay. One sure thing, the fact that slaves are losing health over time is too much to manage. 

I still think that the vanilla base "women & citizen-soldier & champion" + your general gameplay idea "Strong core & weak countryside" + battalion (after testing) is the best. I'm having a lot of fun playing Seleucid on your mod. 

PS: From tonight I'll start a huge video on your mod (probably 3 or 4 parts)!

 

[sphyrth]

I think the slaves mechanic kind of makes sense if auto-queueing mechanic is implemented... or  they serve as "you're going to delete them later anyway"

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The dying slaves thing would only be in effect when you force them to work. Idle or moving, they don't lose health. Can also be healed like any other unit. The point would be to give a little turnover to your slaves. Drive the point home that they are slaves and commodities to be managed a little bit, not regular citizens. I admit the current dying slaves in DE may be annoying, but there's currently no way to implement them like I want to.

Edited May 10, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Alekusu]

Yes I saw how you want to implement the slaves but still it will be quite hard to manage once ingame. Having to remember to put your workers to idle isn't easy (the opposite is already quite hard for beginners eheh)

In your mind, would the slave/citizen gameplay should be for all factions? I think if we can have factions with and without slaves mechanism it would help differentiate the faction's playstyle better. And that way people can choose what gameplay they like (like if you don't like to mass units, just don't play zerg)

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Alekusu said:

In your mind, would the slave/citizen gameplay should be for all factions? I think if we can have factions with and without slaves mechanism it would help differentiate the faction's playstyle better. And that way people can choose what gameplay they like (like if you don't like to mass units, just don't play zerg)

 

I'd say many of the civs would have it, while a few wouldn't.

[av93]

Hmm maybe it could be implemented in this way: slaves in normal mode have a better rates working, but you can use the upgrade component to overwork and exhaust them (losing health but better stats). It could be changed again. Something like your mauryan champ weapon swapping feature.

Something like chaos workers in dow1.

 

Edited May 10, 2017 by av93

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Sounds cool. Similar to my Run Amok feature for War Elephants. IMHO you shouldn't be able to switch back. Should have to commit to the decision and work them to death. lol

Edited May 10, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Anubis1011]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone

Hello! I am a newcomer to this game but not to AOE2 and this is my first community post. AOE2 was a longtime love of mine, 0 A.D. Carries on with the spirit of that title in many ways. But your further modifications make this even more interesting and fresh.

I want to say that this gameplay essay really works for me. I love the changes.

i especially like the change to citizen soldiers, as I feel otherwise they disincentivize creating a variety of military units and make certain strategies less viable.

i also love the idea of battalions, as micro was always a frustration for me. I have always felt that some collusion of the Total War and Age Of Empires series would be totally kickass. Looks like this is well on its way to becoming something of that sort.

ive read some of the other forum posts/threads and already seen some amazing topics, great ideas, and flame wars (looking at you guys @DarcReaver @Lion.Kanzen.) Try to be patient with one another. Let's try some new takes on classic tropes and see what happens.

One final (unrelated) note on Game Theory - it's easy to get caught up in a perspective that excludes other perspectives. If you come at this game looking at 1v1 strategies only, you can seriously cripple the scope of the title. While I like a good 1v1 deathmatch, the best times I recall involved 5-6 player games with friends that were drawn out and finally ended with a wonder victory or something. Everyone should remember that the point is to have fun while also overcoming a challenge.

Cheers all

 

Anubis

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 5/11/2017 at 6:49 PM, Anubis1011 said:

Hello! I am a newcomer to this game but not to AOE2 and this is my first community post. AOE2 was a longtime love of mine, 0 A.D. Carries on with the spirit of that title in many ways. But your further modifications make this even more interesting and fresh.

 

Thank you!

 

Awesome video by Alekusu here: 

 

[sphyrth]

Hopefully, Alekusu's Series will give DE the attention it deserves.

[Alekusu]

yeah more are coming! (just been so busy at work lately)

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Bump, since improving the core gameplay is now a topic again.

 

In DE, I have implemented Scout Cavalry for the game and they work beautifully. They're good for hunting and scouting. You get one free Scout at the beginning. If you build a Stable, then you can train 1 more Scout [or do you use that stone for a barracks or archery range instead? Decisions, decisions]. No other cavalry are available in Village Phase. At Town Phase the cavalry cap for all types, including scouts, is lifted.

Edited February 26, 2018 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[WhiteTreePaladin]

I do think scout cavalry (with a food only cost like AoK) would be a nice addition.

[Stan`]

Sounds like a bold change so close to a release but maybe @temple has some ideas

[Servo]

Food only requirement to train cavalry will just make the game worst imo. Food is just too easy to produce in the game.

DEs two cavalry max at P1 is fine but even if you lift the cap at P2 there must be more requirements to diminish spamming cavalry, or maybe cap it too. If during those actual wars I guess the number of cavalry units can’t comprise half of each Civ armies. Corral and metal requirements could make it much harder as the player has to think more as to what will be his strategy. 

I agree the game pace is just too fast that only lag makes it slower. The easy unit spamming is making the game less strategic and fast click and thinking are still the skills needed to become better. Food and wood are just easy to gather that most resources gatherer (army) can be easily spammed. The player becomes so unmindful whether he lost a unit or not or he even produces so much women that can easily be deleted to allow combat unit production.

If units don’t require metal to train they might as well less attack damage and /or less armor capability until they are upgraded. Upgrades should only take effect on selected units and should cost necessary resources each. This maybe harder to do so just keep the tech cost higher. RoN is still a good game today not with standard settings but on nomad, very slow and expensive tech. Couple with increasing the cost of units as you train more makes the game slower pace. The lag is only happening if the players PC and internet is bad.

This deletion of unit and structure also should be removed on MP games. Fine on SP though.

Hero aura and capability are also quite unrealistic. They are too OP especially cavalry ones. 

 

[Stan`]

@Servo Talking about SVN or A22 ?

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, WhiteTreePaladin said:

I do think scout cavalry (with a food only cost like AoK) would be a nice addition.

And very weaker

[WhiteTreePaladin]

3 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

And very weaker

Yeah, they weren't really meant to be a threat in AoK. We would get the added utility of hunting which was only available for villagers in AoK.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 minutes ago, WhiteTreePaladin said:

Yeah, they weren't really meant to be a threat in AoK. We would get the added utility of hunting which was only available for villagers in AoK.

Yes, the utility basically is explore and hunting, and may be rush/hunt female units in early stages. was very good addition to DE. but still missing a trash infantry (axeman/ club/ militia).

 

[Servo]

A22, unfortunately I was unsuccessful on installing svn on OS X. 

I know that it’s hard to do some changes to gameplay just hope that some more realistic gameplay  can be done and the game becomes more immersive on both MP and SP. 

Another thing is the tribute or resources sending so “quick”. Why can’t it be done by sending resources using units? In case the resources needed is not carried by individuals I think wagons can be added. If units are also dropping off resources to ally drop site or CC it should go to that ally. It’s like helping your teammates in a realistic way. Gathering for them and defending them at the same time  

Most players can afford to lose units carrying resources in the battle and tbh it’s not a nice sight. Units must be able to fight only without carrying any resources. If they don’t drop it off there should be time to make them combat ready and lose the resources they are carrying. 

On barter side it should be really a real barter. If you don’t have goods to barter then your trade cart should auto stop. The sight of trade caravans in huge quantities are just too unreal. If the amount of goods to trade can be much much more then the players don’t need to use too many trade carts. The population can have more cap to much needed units like soldiers.

I say this because I play not just SP but MP too since A21. I play with the best players too on team games. I try to play along with new players hoping they like the game and trying to feel them about the game also.