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Grugnas

[A21] Sieges

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Hi again, this time I decided to open a thread that will regroup all sieges discussions in order to keep the subforum clean and avoiding multiple threads that basically could share some stuff into.

I'll start with talking about Siege Tower and Ram garrison/ungarrison possibility. Historically those 2 sieges are meant to transport units by garrisoning them through an entrance in the back of those sieges, letting units protect the engine. In game, the siege will unload units from its front preventing the siege to move and blocking its way to the target. Actually this is very annoying because in order to protect the ram, the units will block the siege, expecially if it is already near to hit an enemy building, making it vulnerable from behind anyway, with the result that the ram can be still be reached and destroyed without the possibility that the ram could actually do any damage at all.

For the siege tower, the main issue is that its damage is low and it is preferable to garrison it with melee units in order to prevent nearby enemy units to hit the siege tower because garrisoning the siege with ranged units wouldn't be effective as using those units when ungarrisoned. So, in order to maximize the damage, since the units garrisoned inside are melee, retiring the tower and ungarrison units when the enemy is close to it seems reasonable, by the way, since the siege tower unload units in its front, the result is that the unloaded units will just block the siege tower.

You can find a replay attached where you can see what I'm talking about.    16:XX min i train the siege towers  18:XX units prevent the retreat, 20:XX this time is even more evedent.  Enjoy the video

Siege Tower:

the siege tower is aviable only for Ptolems and Macedonians.

The siege tower is a siege (really??) that should be able to capture buildings or, at least, being able to crush buildings as any siege out there. Where are the issues?

    The cost doesn't fit its performance.

       Projectile Limit:  the tower benefits from 10 garrisoned units only of a 20 units limit, it means that a siege tower is easier to capture if a player wants to optimize the number of units in the battlefield.

       It can't capture buildings: it could be able to capture building since it was historically used to open a way into the enemy walls when there were no more Suicidal Uruk'hai Berserker  aviable :rolleyes:.

       Low Damage: this needs a bit more explaination. The siege tower actually has only 2.5 crush damage per projectile shooted every 2 seconds. There is a tech aviable into the fortress which is supposed to increase the crush damage by 25% for all the sieges, tech that IMHO doesn't give any rilevant advantage to boolt shooters and siege towers (25% of 2,5 isn't really a big deal). 20 slingers can actually outdamage a siege tower, expecially because of the 10 projectiles limit,  and they could even capture buildings, eventually.

The only way to use that siege in a very effective way is/was to use the Macedonian hero Demetrios who increases the crush damage of sieges by +10 globally, without any range constraint, Aura that will be changed to +15% crush damage (if i remember right) in the alpha 22 and, as you can imagine, 15% of 2,5 isn't a big deal.

The funny thing is that Demetrios can boost the damage of the siege tower from 2,5 crush damage to 12,5, privilege not aviable for ptolemaics (didn't test siege towers with Cleopatra aura yet).

As you can notice in the attached replay, Catapults have 5 sec attack rate, so slow that a siege tower with Demetrios aura can outdamage them by far (even rams out damage catapults easly) and how a siege tower boosted by that aura are able crush briton buildings really easy, maybe too easy, if compared to their base damage.

Quote

You can find a replay attached where you can see what I'm talking about.    16:XX min i train the siege towers  18:XX units prevent the retreat, 20:XX this time is even more evedent.  Enjoy the video

Ram:

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Catapult: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/21631-a21-catapults/Boolt Shooter:

 

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2017-01-30_0011.rar

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las torres de asedio deberian ser capaces de capturar muros fortalezas y centros así serian realmente importantes en el  campo 

Edited by soloooy0

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The problem with that is that walls are not capturable, I do agree performance/cost ratio of siege towers is a bit too low. Demetrius's aura should probably be fixed, that doesn't sound like it was intended to turn siege towers into lawnmowers

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@fatherbushido thanks for the resources, I'll check deeper into it. However in the actualy situation 20 slingers can destroy a fully upgraded siege tower, with or without the Demetrius aura. Basically 20 slingers are cheaper then the tower and they are even stronger, without counting the fact that it is vulnerable to sword cavalry just as slingers or any ranged unit is.

By the way I can't understand the crush damage adjustment because basically the siege towers are sieges and they are meant to attack buildings, by the way they are hybrid units and they can attack units too dissipating the crush damage inflicted to the buildings tho. And please, notice that iberian defence towers cost much less and they have garrison limit of 8 units by the way they shot more arrows than a siege tower garrisoned with more units. I think that one solution could be, for example, granting to the siege tower the same techs of the defensive towers could be an extra buff to those and an interesting "synergy" since they are siege and towers too keeping their difference constant. In that way the siege tower could have increased arrows shooted by the same number of units garrisoned in it at cost of extra techs, increasing the damage aswell even keeping the actual stats.

Edited by Grugnas

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I think they just need to be tougher and not even deal crush damage, that way you can just park them in front of enemy defenses to keep archers away from the walls so rams or sappers , catapults or whatever can work in a more secure environment. 

Then again, I'm opposed to the lightning sieges consisting of rams and champs bowling over everything 

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I agree that siege towers are too costly in their current state. Historically, siege towers were used to capture the walls of a city or a fortress. The entrance to the engine is located in the back, from where ladders are located leading to the different levels of the tower. Thus when ungarrisonning the siege tower, units should ungarrison at the back of it.

Quote

The biggest siege towers of antiquity, such as the Helepolis (meaning "The Taker of Cities") of the siege of Rhodes in 305 BC, could be as high as 135 feet and as wide as 67.5 feet. Such large engines would require a rack and pinion to be moved effectively. It was manned by 200 soldiers and was divided into nine stories; the different levels housed various types of catapults and ballistae. Subsequent siege towers down through the centuries often had similar engines.

 

Since of course in 0ad everything is scaled down a lot, it would be sensible to keep then garrison limit of 20 while maybe making it garrisonable by catapults and/or bolt-shooters.

Summary of Siege Tower: It is a slow, awkward unit which doesn't have a high enough attack nor defence to justify the high cost of the unit. It is unworthy of the name of "Helepolis"(meaning "The Taker of Cities"), and should be just called an assault tower and not siege tower.

 

Unfortunately, the siege in 0ad is still very weak and can be easily destroyed. A few upgrades for siege(like blacksmith for organic units), for example 2 levels of armour and 2 levels of attack upgrades might make sense. Currently, 5 champs are enough to destroy any siege in just seconds, making siege only worth to train once you got a huge army of champs to defend, then do one of those "lightning sieges" where you do most damage not with siege but with champs.

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8 hours ago, soloooy0 said:

las torres de asedio deberian ser capaces de capturar muros fortalezas y centros así serian realmente importantes en el  campo 

Helepolis

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1 hour ago, Servo said:

Most AI don't build walls. For single player type of gamer what's the use of siege tower?!

For now the tower can be used to protect units and use to attack other units in the way.

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