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elexis

Limit Hero reproduction

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A hero is a unique unit, but the game doesn't reflect that. If it dies, it can be trained again and again without any repercussions. Since the hero is the most tanky unit, it is the first one to be trained when having built a fortress and usually just sent behind the enemy line.

Instead, it should have a significant impact if the hero vanishes. It could either

A ) be trained only once (i.e. if the first trained hero dies, only the other two hero choices can be trained) or

B ) the cost and train time should increase with every death (for example double)

This change has been widely discussed a lot in the lobby (ping @Grugnas, @Hannibal_Barca, @Vercingetorix_, @borg- , @fatherbushido, siole) and is with some exceptions agreed upon. @scythetwirler do you agree with the idea?

How the change is implemented code-wise is another story (but in both cases, the Player component should keep track of the trained heroes).

("we all  got sick of the 10th boudicca dying to mace champs. you kill her and 2 mins later she is there again")

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The player will only train hero with global aura, then hide them in the base the whole match.

One way around this is through actual game design work --gasp-- and design new range-base auras for global heroes.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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There are many forms to do this, one single decision a single Heroe for all match.

1-can work like AoE 3 / AoM character, not dead only injured.

 

let a lot of time  to training button get ready again. 100 years of gameplay. This way you get a new  Alexander every 100 years or more.

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I am not for adding such a complexity as (2)

But I agree that their costs (and training time, we need a big one) needs to be cleaned (some are cheaper than champs iirc).

I am neutral for (1)

@sphyrth is it really still the case in a21?

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@fatherbushido I'm not sure since I play only against the AI. I'm fine with the decision of slowing down the champion production speed. But I'm sensing that the stronger MP players have side-comments against Boudicca.

I have leanings towards option #2 simply because I'm a former Dota (Warcraft III) player. BUT along with the nuances of a Warcraft hero.... which is not recommended for an Alpha-stage game.

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IMO "heroes" with a unique name that cannot be spawned again after death are for campaignes (maybe for scenarios, too).

For skirmishes/random maps (and maybe scenarios) "heroes" should be a generic leader with some specific skills rather than a specific person (A list of names could be given to make it more personalized. Irrelevant for gameplay though). Then it wouldn't be any problem a "Hero" could be "rebuild" (because it wouldn't be the same person).

Training such a unit should indeed need a long time.

I put "Hero" in quoteation marks because IMO a hero cannot be trained or planned (at least not with a great chance of success) because any person can become a hero if he has unique views/skills/way of acting and (during our time frame) survived against the odds having done what maybe many have done before but where more often mentioned and had more "luck" in surviving. So a person becomes a hero, he isn't made as one. IMO that "Hero" concept we have (as is) is more what we are used to from literature or movies than from reality.

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3 hours ago, sphyrth said:

I have leanings towards option #2 simply because I'm a former Dota (Warcraft III) player. BUT along with the nuances of a Warcraft hero.... which is not recommended for an Alpha-stage game.

In fact, I m an old timer, so Dota stuff are not at all my cup of tea :) (it was more or less the death of 'classical RTS').

 

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I like #1 if and only if all heroes receive a thorough overview and balance.

#2 is more feasible and I've thought of it too. A timer would be nice, something like 2 minutes before you can begin to train the same hero. Maybe even increase the cost per death and/or increase the length of a timer too.

Edited by Finchj
tried to clear up the language
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Option A forces players to take better care of their hero of choice, AND encourages to know how each hero for certain factions. At the moment, I tend to stick to my favorite heores and not bother with the others. Not to mention that this is not as complicated at Option B.  That's the benefit I could see with this option.

 

Option B - I have more complexity in mind.

Heroes can level up to 5. Each level improves their abilities, and auras... but also increases their train time and resource requirements. (Warcraft III heroes spawn automatically after dying for N minutes, but I don't like thatfor 0 A.D.

 

Just now, fatherbushido said:

In fact, I m an old timer, so Dota stuff are not at all my cup of tea :) (it was more or less the death of 'classical RTS').

Not your generation alright. This is why I love 0 A.D. It gives me the AoE childhood that I never had. The Red Alert series and Battle Realms were the only games that came closest to the classical era I came across... quite fun, but very dumbed down.

 

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A) I disagree on this. d Don't think it could be fair due heroes aura are too different for training them only oncr, for example elephant heroes are the most risky to attack with, however it could be a fun alternative to regicide :P

B ) I agree on the cooldown increase because some heroes have powerful aura in battlefield (all 20% attack damage increase, persia and maurya "train-o-matic" heroes) and the fact that cavalry heroes have the advantage to poke and ruin expecially food eco while your army is elsewhere and, since towers can't really kill a hero and walls are not so popular, a longer cooldown can come in handy to prevent this kind of use.

Heroes on elephant are used as sieges and they are the most like to die and an increase of resources would influence them too much since they expensive already.

Edited by Grugnas
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A - I particularly like this option, I think it's more realistic, and it will make the player make better decisions.

B - Maybe instead of increasing the time, why not make them all more expensive? This would limit the player to raise them all the time.

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. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.:P

I would also be in favor of A for realism, and because it could make things interesting. 

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The player will only train hero with global aura, then hide them in the base the whole match. This is kind of the problem with global aura for hero. Some heroes he has to be out there fighting or close to the fight, so will die quickly. Other heroe he just plant himself inside the base the rest of the match and he boosts his civ with a global aura. This become more pronounced if you can't retrain the fighting hero after he is killed.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone

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Correct. If heroes can't be trained again and have a global aura, they will be parked in safety.

@fatherbushido  and me addressed this last alpha for the most important heroes already (in particular Boudicca and the roman +20% attack guy)..
Apparently there are still many left though:

Spoiler

athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json-{
athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json:    "type": "global",
athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json-    "affects": ["Javelin"],
athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json-    "modifications": [
athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json-        { "value": "UnitMotion/WalkSpeed", "multiply": 1.15 }
athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json-    ],
athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json-    "auraName": "Peltast Reforms",
athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json-    "auraDescription": "All Peltasts +15% speed."
athen_hero_iphicrates_2.json-}
--
athen_hero_pericles_2.json-{
athen_hero_pericles_2.json:    "type": "global",
athen_hero_pericles_2.json-    "affects": ["Temple"],
athen_hero_pericles_2.json-    "modifications": [
athen_hero_pericles_2.json-        { "value": "Cost/Resources/stone", "add": -50 }
athen_hero_pericles_2.json-    ],
athen_hero_pericles_2.json-    "auraName": "Acropolis Aura",
athen_hero_pericles_2.json-    "auraDescription": "Temples are 50 stone cheaper during his lifetime."
athen_hero_pericles_2.json-}
--
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json-{
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json:    "type": "global",
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json-    "affects": ["Ship"],
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json-    "modifications": [
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json-        { "value": "Cost/BuildTime", "multiply": 0.8 }
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json-    ],
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json-    "auraName": "Naval Architect Aura",
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json-    "auraDescription": "-20% build time for ships during his lifespan."
athen_hero_themistocles_2.json-}
--
brit_hero_caratacos.json-{
brit_hero_caratacos.json:    "type": "global",
brit_hero_caratacos.json-    "affects": ["Soldier", "Siege"],
brit_hero_caratacos.json-    "modifications": [
brit_hero_caratacos.json-        { "value": "UnitMotion/WalkSpeed", "multiply": 1.15 }
brit_hero_caratacos.json-    ],
brit_hero_caratacos.json-    "auraName": "Hero Aura",
brit_hero_caratacos.json-    "auraDescription": "All Units +15% speed."
brit_hero_caratacos.json-}
--
cart_hero_hamilcar.json-{
cart_hero_hamilcar.json:    "type": "global",
cart_hero_hamilcar.json-    "affects": ["Soldier", "Siege"],
cart_hero_hamilcar.json-    "modifications": [
cart_hero_hamilcar.json-        { "value": "UnitMotion/WalkSpeed", "multiply": 1.15 }
cart_hero_hamilcar.json-    ],
cart_hero_hamilcar.json-    "auraName": "Lightning Aura",
cart_hero_hamilcar.json-    "auraDescription": "All Units +15% speed."
cart_hero_hamilcar.json-}
--
gaul_hero_brennus.json-{
gaul_hero_brennus.json:    "type": "global",
gaul_hero_brennus.json-    "affects": ["Human", "Mechanical"],
gaul_hero_brennus.json-    "modifications": [
gaul_hero_brennus.json-        { "value": "Looter/Resource/metal", "add": 10 }
gaul_hero_brennus.json-    ],
gaul_hero_brennus.json-    "auraName": "Hero Aura",
gaul_hero_brennus.json-    "auraDescription": "+10 Metal loot for every enemy unit killed."
gaul_hero_brennus.json-}
--
gaul_hero_britomartus.json-{
gaul_hero_britomartus.json:    "type": "global",
gaul_hero_britomartus.json-    "affects": ["Worker"],
gaul_hero_britomartus.json-    "modifications": [
gaul_hero_britomartus.json-        { "value": "ResourceGatherer/BaseSpeed", "multiply": 1.15 }
gaul_hero_britomartus.json-    ],
gaul_hero_britomartus.json-    "auraName": "Hero Aura",
gaul_hero_britomartus.json-    "auraDescription": "Gathering rates increased with +15% during his lifetime."
gaul_hero_britomartus.json-}
--
mace_hero_alexander.json-{
mace_hero_alexander.json:    "type": "global",
mace_hero_alexander.json-    "affects": ["Structure"],
mace_hero_alexander.json-    "modifications": [
mace_hero_alexander.json-        { "value": "TerritoryInfluence/Radius", "multiply": 1.1 }
mace_hero_alexander.json-    ],
mace_hero_alexander.json-    "auraName": "Imperialism Aura",
mace_hero_alexander.json-    "auraDescription": "+10% territory effect for all buildings while he lives."
mace_hero_alexander.json-}
--
mace_hero_demetrius.json-{
mace_hero_demetrius.json:    "type": "global",
mace_hero_demetrius.json-    "affects": ["Siege"],
mace_hero_demetrius.json-    "modifications": [
mace_hero_demetrius.json-        { "value": "Attack/Melee/Crush", "add": 10 },
mace_hero_demetrius.json-        { "value": "Attack/Ranged/Crush", "add": 10 },
mace_hero_demetrius.json-        { "value": "Attack/Ranged/MaxRange", "multiply": 1.15 },
mace_hero_demetrius.json-        { "value": "Vision/Range", "multiply": 1.15 }
mace_hero_demetrius.json-    ],
mace_hero_demetrius.json-    "auraName": "Hero Aura",
mace_hero_demetrius.json-    "auraDescription": "+15% Range and +10 Crush Attack for Siege Engines.",
mace_hero_demetrius.json-    "overlayIcon": "art/textures/ui/session/auras/attack_bonus.png"
mace_hero_demetrius.json-}
--
maur_hero_ashoka.json-{
maur_hero_ashoka.json:    "type": "global",
maur_hero_ashoka.json-    "affectedPlayers": ["MutualAlly"],
maur_hero_ashoka.json-    "affects": ["Temple"],
maur_hero_ashoka.json-    "modifications": [
maur_hero_ashoka.json-        { "value": "ProductionQueue/TechCostMultiplier/wood", "multiply": 0.5 },
maur_hero_ashoka.json-        { "value": "ProductionQueue/TechCostMultiplier/food", "multiply": 0.5 },
maur_hero_ashoka.json-        { "value": "ProductionQueue/TechCostMultiplier/metal", "multiply": 0.5 },
maur_hero_ashoka.json-        { "value": "ProductionQueue/TechCostMultiplier/stone", "multiply": 0.5 },
maur_hero_ashoka.json-        { "value": "ProductionQueue/TechCostMultiplier/time", "multiply": 0.5 }
maur_hero_ashoka.json-    ],
maur_hero_ashoka.json-    "auraDescription": "All player and allied Temple technologies -50% cost and -50% research time.",
maur_hero_ashoka.json-    "auraName": "Evangelism Aura",
maur_hero_ashoka.json-    "overlayIcon": "art/textures/ui/session/auras/build_bonus.png"
maur_hero_ashoka.json-}
--
pers_hero_darius.json-{
pers_hero_darius.json:    "type": "global",
pers_hero_darius.json-    "affects": ["Soldier", "Siege"],
pers_hero_darius.json-    "modifications": [
pers_hero_darius.json-        { "value": "UnitMotion/WalkSpeed", "multiply": 1.15 }
pers_hero_darius.json-    ],
pers_hero_darius.json-    "auraName": "Leadership Aura",
pers_hero_darius.json-    "auraDescription": "+15% Movement Speed for all units."
pers_hero_darius.json-}
--
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-{
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json:    "type": "global",
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-    "affects": ["Mercenary"],
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-    "modifications": [
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-        { "value": "Cost/Resources/food", "multiply": 0.5 },
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-        { "value": "Cost/Resources/wood", "multiply": 0.5 },
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-        { "value": "Cost/Resources/stone", "multiply": 0.5 },
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-        { "value": "Cost/Resources/metal", "multiply": 0.5 }
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-    ],
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-    "auraName": "Mercenary Patron Aura",
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-    "auraDescription": "Mercenaries cost -50% resources during his lifetime."
ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.json-}
--
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json-{
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json:    "type": "global",
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json-    "affects": ["Pike"],
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json-    "modifications": [
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json-        { "value": "Health/Max", "multiply": 1.40 }
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json-    ],
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json-    "auraName": "Raphia Aura",
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json-    "auraDescription": "Egyptian Pikemen have 40% greater health during his lifetime."
ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV.json-}
--
rome_hero_maximus.json-{
rome_hero_maximus.json:    "type": "global",
rome_hero_maximus.json-    "affects": ["Human", "Structure"],
rome_hero_maximus.json-    "modifications": [
rome_hero_maximus.json-        { "value": "Armour/Pierce", "add": 1 },
rome_hero_maximus.json-        { "value": "Armour/Hack", "add": 1 },
rome_hero_maximus.json-        { "value": "Armour/Crush", "add": 1 }
rome_hero_maximus.json-    ],
rome_hero_maximus.json-    "auraName": "Shield of Rome Aura",
rome_hero_maximus.json-    "auraDescription": "+1 armor for all units and structures."
rome_hero_maximus.json-}
--
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-{
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json:    "type": "global",
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-    "affects": ["Cavalry"],
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-    "modifications": [
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-        { "value": "Armour/Pierce", "add": 2 },
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-        { "value": "Armour/Hack", "add": 2 },
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-        { "value": "Armour/Crush", "add": 2 }
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-    ],
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-    "auraName": "Ilarchès Aura",
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-    "auraDescription": "All Cavalry gains +2 levels of all armor types."
sele_hero_antiochus_great.json-}

 

So we should change athen_hero_iphicrates, brit_hero_caratacos, cart_hero_hamilcar  gaul_hero_brennus, gaul_hero_britomartus. (with the range of the size of a city), mace_hero_demetrius, pers_hero_darius, ptol_hero_ptolemy_IV, rome_hero_maximus, sele_hero_antiochus_great,

and not change: athen_hero_pericles_2, athen_hero_themistocles, mace_hero_alexander, ptol_hero_ptolemy_I_2.

Also @wowgetoffyourcellphone, if you create an account on code.wildfiregames.com, you can propose, review and accept patces like this one too.

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(Some of the above auras can't be local.)

Else there are indeed antagonist forces to find the good balance:

- we want hero to fight,

- we want them being precious so we'll lose them definitely if they die,

It leads to making them most powerfull (meh dota like :p)

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1 hour ago, fatherbushido said:

(Some of the above auras can't be local.)

Else there are indeed antagonist forces to find the good balance:

- we want hero to fight,

- we want them being precious so we'll lose them definitely if they die,

It leads to making them most powerfull (meh dota like :p)

I think thats why the second option is better. By putting some kind of limitation on retraining, players are forced to care more about heroes. 

Currently we have heroes that can even be sacrificed when low on health because the "only" consequence of losing one is the retrain time. 

Still, I don't think it is a good idea to go to the other end of the spectrum and say that once a hero is dead, the hero is dead. Maybe it is a bit silly using historical figures as heroes if they can come back from the grave, but I think finding a space in the middle between "who cares if my hero dies" and "I better protect my hero from any harm else I lose the aura forever" makes more sense.

A timer preventing you from retraining the hero for a certain period of time, plus increasing costs per "resurrection" makes a lot of sense to me.

___

This is just something to think about, I'm sure it isn't new either:

One could even grade the heroes for each civ in order to guide balancing:

  1. The lower tier hero is cheapest, has a lower retrain cool down time, and has a global aura. Global auras can be kept at a lower strength simply because they are always on, everywhere. 
  2. The middle tier hero could be like the best heroes we have now, but weakened a bit. So instead of +5 attack, for example, it goes to +2 and is a proximity aura that is always on. 
  3. The highest tier hero would be quite expensive, but have multiple auras that have timers, more like Warcraft 3 or something. They could be things like +10 attack for 30 seconds, -20% building capture points for 10 seconds, +50% healing rate for 30 seconds... things that if timed right could change the course of a battle or help your army keep moving after a battle.

*Note: low middle and high denote the amount of micromanagement necessary to gain the most benefit from the hero. Also, there should be some consequence for a hero being mounted or on foot.

I do like that each hero is supposed to represent something unique that they remain known for for 2000+ years later. I think each civ could have unique hero attributes even with this grading system. 

For instance, Athens could be:

  1. Pericles, low. Lower temple cost, construction bonus, economic gathering rate bonus (or) barracks train speed bonus (Funeral oration inspiring citizens to fight on).
  2. Themistocles, middle. Lower ship training time, increased ship speed, +2 attack constant aura
  3. Iphicrates, high. Increased armor +1 or +2 constant aura. Auras with timers: Increased unit speed +25% that lasts maybe 30s; -10% enemy unit health for 15s (rumor of Iphicrates' "tactical cruise" to Corcyra led the Spartans to break off their siege before his highly trained and well drilled fleet even arrived)
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Mostly the "permanent hero death" option will lead to focusing heroes when they are on the frontline (and they have to be there, otherwise they are of no use). That will mean that heroes will die soon somewhat often, changing the gameplay somewhat. I believe this will add a huge use case for healers, not only with regards to the hero elephant.

I'm not convinced by distinguishing heroes in tiers, as they should all be equally useful, just with different applications.

Losing a hero will be detrimental for the rest of the game, but it won't be the end of the world. The more I think about it, the more I like this option.

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13 hours ago, elexis said:

Mostly the "permanent hero death" option will lead to focusing heroes when they are on the frontline (and they have to be there, otherwise they are of no use). That will mean that heroes will die soon somewhat often, changing the gameplay somewhat. I believe this will add a huge use case for healers, not only with regards to the hero elephant.

I'm not convinced by distinguishing heroes in tiers, as they should all be equally useful, just with different applications.

Losing a hero will be detrimental for the rest of the game, but it won't be the end of the world. The more I think about it, the more I like this option.

The tier idea would need more fleshing out, which is more work, and possibly a real headache to actually balance in the end.

I do like the permanent death idea too, though I'd want to see it paired with rebalancing of heroes (at a minimum giving Iberians some temporary bonuses).

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