Victory Conditions Ideas

[Imarok]

I think it's planned to disable their attack ability until phase 3

[Lion.Kanzen]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone Can add game modes?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

12 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone Can add game modes?

DE already has the Conquest Civic Center victory condition.  I also renamed Conquest Units to "Genocide", and renamed Regicide to "Herocide."

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

DE already has the Conquest Civic Center victory condition.  I also renamed Conquest Units to "Genocide", and renamed Regicide to "Herocide."

I mean the title, I want merging some ideas from YouTube and AoE II multiplayer.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I think game modes are different than victory conditions, although they can be relation.

 

I would not mind talking about how Death Match should play. It is not just lots of resources.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Yes but are related.

[Dade]

I am a bit late but here goes my 2 cents. It's a game-mode/victory condition from the great Company of Heroes saga.

Victory Points Condition

• Each map should have at least 3 Victory Points positions, which every player/team can capture
• When a player have more VPs than the other, his opponent looses points (usually starting at 500)

Here is a random discussion on gamereplays.org about the differences between VPs Condition and Annihilation (our actual and more used game mode in MP).

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I like the idea of capture points. Could use mercenary camps for this.

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I like the idea of capture points. Could use mercenary camps for this.

Nope, I prefer take a flag. Like Rome total war.

[elexis]

When planning new gamemodes, it's good to have the compatible on every map (It's unexpected if settings are only available only on some maps.)

In case there are new entities relevant to the victory condition or gamemode, they have to be placed after the game has started, if we want to avoid changing all maps (that should support the gamemode).

If we want to place some military camp, that would have to pass the build restrictions, but that shouldn't be hard at all actually.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, elexis said:

When planning new gamemodes, it's good to have the compatible on every map (It's unexpected if settings are only available only on some maps.)

In case there are new entities relevant to the victory condition or gamemode, they have to be placed after the game has started, if we want to avoid changing all maps (that should support the gamemode).

If we want to place some military camp, that would have to pass the build restrictions, but that shouldn't be hard at all actually.

Could have entity flags that make them show up base on victory condition or gametype. Use tokens.

[elexis]

Would still require to educate every map about new game conditions. Better write a script that works for all maps by trying to find a smart solution (random coordinates, try placement checks. Might end up in an uneachable position I guess, unless we would do a pathfinding check to ensure reachability)

[svott]

Perhaps it make sense to use a different number of 'flags' on every map. I have some distribution algorithms in mind, but I don't think that a script would produce a nice distribution for all maps.

[Lion.Kanzen]

@FeXoR what you think about the distribution of this feature in RMS?

[Dade]

On 30/12/2016 at 4:43 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I like the idea of capture points. Could use mercenary camps for this.

I am not sure about the technical aspects, but the capture point could vary depending on the game as long they are clearly marked on map as VPs and share the same characteristics. I guess flags are easier to place, but mercenary camps and other buildings could be interesting and fun.

On 30/12/2016 at 10:39 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

Nope, I prefer take a flag. Like Rome total war.

Same as above

 

On 1/1/2017 at 3:53 AM, elexis said:

Would still require to educate every map about new game conditions. Better write a script that works for all maps by trying to find a smart solution (random coordinates, try placement checks. Might end up in an uneachable position I guess, unless we would do a pathfinding check to ensure reachability)

Remember those VPs should be equally distributed over the map, unless the map itself gives an advantage to a team over another. If the most viable solution is to edit all maps (as you stated in your other post), or at least a set of maps to test the game mode I am ready to edit them the best I can (maybe I'll need some guidance for the first one, but lets do it). It's a game mode/victory condition I proposed, so I guess I should take responsibility for it.

 

On 1/1/2017 at 8:52 AM, svott said:

Perhaps it make sense to use a different number of 'flags' on every map. I have some distribution algorithms in mind, but I don't think that a script would produce a nice distribution for all maps.

It has lot of sense, bear in mind even number of flags makes 'faster' games and odd numbers of flags make the game prone to turtling, at least in Company of Heroes. Maybe, there could be odd number of flags if Victory Points can only be captured by having them on your own territory, this may elevate decision making and raise the utility of extra civic centers.

 

I'm glad you guys liked the idea

[jkufner]

I think the best amount of flags to capture would be the smallest prime bigger than number of players. E.g. 2 players -> 3 flags, 3 or 4 players -> 5 flags, 5 players -> 7 flags, etc. To make game a bit more interesting, the second smallest prime number could be used.

The flags could be placed manually or automatically. Manual placement provides an easy way to deal with complex maps. Automatic placement allows to play on any map or to generate random maps. Mannual placement is easy -- author places sufficient number of flags on map and that's it. Automatic placement is a bit more complicated as we need to deal with two aspects: uniform flag placement and fair strategical dispositions.

The automatic flag placement algorithm:

1. Build Voronoi diagram using walking distances between players. Use edges of the map as additional "player", so the each player's region will end half way to edge of the map. This will provide additional edges in the diagram
2. Find points V in the Voronoi diagram, where more than two regions meet.
3. Find points P which are in middle between neighbour points V (in middle of boundaries between the regions).
4. Place desired number of flags on points V and P, which are nearest to center of the map.

I have not tested this, but I think it should  provide reasonable and mostly fair flag placement. At least on maps without significant terrain features, like a river between players with a single bridge. But it should be possible to deal with these features as well.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I think capture points would be better represent by something historic, than just random flag. Thoughts?

[jkufner]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think capture points would be better represent by something historic, than just random flag. Thoughts?

I think the flag is completely fine.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Just now, jkufner said:

I think the flag is completely fine.

Hmm,, this isn't paintball. This is historical game. That's all I say on that.

[jkufner]

18 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Hmm,, this isn't paintball. This is historical game. That's all I say on that.

Flags were used all the time trough the history. According to http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/7399/who-invented-the-first-flag the oldest documented use of flags is from around 5000 BC. So, yes, flags are fine.

[Lion.Kanzen]

12 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Hmm,, this isn't paintball. This is historical game. That's all I say on that.

Rome 2 :  Total war too in their first patches and people start to complain about the games , it was more  capture flag game.

They called capture points and its was in non siege battles.

Spoiler

 

But in 0 A.D is different, the main goal of a victory condition will be that.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 minutes ago, jkufner said:

Flags were used all the time trough the history. According to http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/7399/who-invented-the-first-flag the oldest documented use of flags is from around 5000 BC. So, yes, flags are fine.

Then they can be historically accurate flag or banner.

[Lion.Kanzen]

A banner, but a big one  banner ( gameplay matters) 

[Lion.Kanzen]

I found a properly video, i make a screenshot.

 

[FeXoR]

I don't have a strong opinion on adding this game mode.

I think though that if this is needed it's a sign of poor game design because strategic spots doesn't emerge on their own from the game rules (dynamic of units interaction, defensive structures, passability handling etc.).

 

I mainly agree with @elexis: There should be a script that runs after the map (of whatever kind) was loaded that places the points if none are present on the original map (So placing the points is optional).

 

On 2.1.2017 at 1:12 PM, jkufner said:

Mannual placement is easy -- author places sufficient number of flags on map and that's it.

1.) The authors of most maps of 0 A.D. may not be reachable any more

2.) Adding work for all maps for only one of many victory conditions is a bad tradeoff.

3:) If a map was not made with gamemode in mind (so every map we have) there might simply not be a well distributed number of points on a map suiting as victory spots.

 

On 1.1.2017 at 9:57 AM, Lion.Kanzen said:

@FeXoR what you think about the distribution of this feature in RMS?

This is possible but should be optional as mentioned above. Thanks for notifying me

 

I also would like to add that the wording "victory points" seem to be used for 2 entirely different things in this thread:

1.) Lokactions/buildings/entities on the map to be "captured"/held by a player. (Maybe call them "Victory spots"?)

2.) A kind of resource for each player that raises or drops dependent on the possession of entities in 1.). (Maybe call them "Dominance"?)

I guess if a players "Dominance" reaches 0 that player loses the game?

Edited January 3, 2017 by FeXoR
Fixed typo