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Lion.Kanzen

Mercenary camps and Neutral buildings.

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My proposition here is explain one of my obsession to give it to this game. Is a feature knew as neutral buildings, I will use Warcraft 3 official info in order to explain this feature because they were the first that I saw implement this in a RTS, after them AOE 3 do it the same with tradepost.

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Neutral buildings appear at strategic locations on every map in Warcraft III. They are designated on the minimap as tiny golden houses. These neutral buildings can be used by any race. Any unit that comes within close range of a neutral building can use it. When a unit enters the vicinity of the building, an arrow usually appears over its head, indicating that the unit can click on the neutral buildings to do business, such as hiring mercenaries or buying magic items(here can be technologies). Some buildings have automatic benefits, and require nothing more than the presence of a unit nearby. Here are a few neutral buildings that have been sighted in the lands of Azeroth. You can also use the Select User button on the neutral building and click on the unit you want to use to activate the building.

Neutral buildings are never actually owned by any one player. To use a neutral building, a player must move a unit within one cell (150 game units) of the neutral building. The building will then indicate that it is now active for the player and can be used.

Once a unit has activated a neutral building, the player can left click on the building and receive a new command card with a list of commands indicating what can be done at the building.

Units from opposing sides can use neutral buildings simultaneously.

All neutral buildings are invulnerable.

Neutral buildings' stock has a Cooldown indicator so you know how long you need to wait for an item/unit to be back in stock.

Use neutral buildings at night to avoid the Creeps defending them.

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############# ------ source: http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutral/buildings.shtml ----#############

We can have different Mercenaries from a biome region.

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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Proposition 2 or improvement of this idea. In AOE 3 this buildings work in other way, but similar.

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The Trading Post can only be built on certain places on a given map. These places are special sites located near Native American settlements or along Trade Routes. An Explorer or a Settler can build the Trading Post on one of these pre-placed sites. If built at a Native settlement, it establishes an alliance with the tribe there. If built near a Trade Route it establishes a post where the passing trade unit - a Travois, Stage Coach or Train - delivers goods as it passes. Allying with Natives allows a player to train special Native units, usually warriors, and also grants access to a group of improvements to that tribe. Native units do not cost any population spaces, but can only be built in limited numbers. Building a Trading Post is a good way to supplement resource gathering or the speed at which you may request Shipments from the Home City. An improvement in the Trading Post increases the speed at wich the trade unit delivers goods. The route starts out serviced by a lone Travois. As you improve it, it becomes a Stage Coach and finally a Train. Anyone who builds a Trading Post along a Trade Route is granted line of sight around the trade unit. This means that as the trade unit passes into the Fog of War or completely unexplored areas, you will be able to see what is immediatly beyond the Train.

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Now my idea is use these ideas to improved the skirmish, scenarios and may be random map.

My buildings idea:

-Mercenary camp,

-Pirate dock.

-siege workshop

-nomad Stables

-elephant Stable

-Mine building

Edited by Lion.Kanzen

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i seem to remember this kind of thing coming up at irregular intervals in the past. one of my own suggestions to this effect was that some maps could have different kinds of "neutral" buildings that you could either destroy or capture and use for your own, depending on what the map was like. for instance, a map set in a deep jungle could have some ancient, generic ruins that you could capture and, depending on what the ruins are styled like, use them to fill the roles of various other buildings (temples of course come to mind, but it could include barracks, fortresses, etc.). another was an inn, which could/would be used similarly to a Civic Center. ideally, each building would only roughly fill the role of an "actual" one, such as the aforementioned inn only being able to train citizens and basic soldiers, while an actual Civic Center would be needed to research technologies and advance to the next Phase

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i seem to remember this kind of thing coming up at irregular intervals in the past. one of my own suggestions to this effect was that some maps could have different kinds of "neutral" buildings that you could either destroy or capture and use for your own, depending on what the map was like. for instance, a map set in a deep jungle could have some ancient, generic ruins that you could capture and, depending on what the ruins are styled like, use them to fill the roles of various other buildings (temples of course come to mind, but it could include barracks, fortresses, etc.). another was an inn, which could/would be used similarly to a Civic Center. ideally, each building would only roughly fill the role of an "actual" one, such as the aforementioned inn only being able to train citizens and basic soldiers, while an actual Civic Center would be needed to research technologies and advance to the next Phase

now we start the eyecandy stuff we can give some advantages and bonus. I'm reading a list of buildings in Warcraft 3 that were suggested before. Like well and fountains to regenerates hp. Or train local warrior, even pirates. In AOk there a building that give resources regenerated for free.

Fortunately the team show today a mercenary camp and I found the proper information about game mechanic about this, it's fascinating to me, it's like have extra buildings without included in faction list. And you can have one like capturing a sheep.

Yeah need conversion that it's may be the next feature to work.

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What would be nice would also be to repair them like in AOM where you could repair ancient buildings. I guess the ptolemaic mercenary camp is for accuracy purposes, like you wouldn't train mercenary units, which at the same time are part of the civ, in the same building as the others. That make sense to me.

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What would be nice would also be to repair them like in AOM where you could repair ancient buildings. I guess the ptolemaic mercenary camp is for accuracy purposes, like you wouldn't train mercenary units, which at the same time are part of the civ, in the same building as the others. That make sense to me.

Yeah, but we can similar building to this, with huts. And others. If play AOE or W3 you can see the advances of thst buildings, train mercenaries, investigate technologies, get bonus for the owner. It's a strategical building because it's a object in middle of game that you can control. And give little plus to your civ. May be can give the advantage to win the game, I'm thinking in put a single one in a map. To control special units or cheaper mercenaries give to you extra pop cap for this special units.

If you are fighting in Bactra Skirmish map you can access to some esperan and Bactrian mercenaries.

Your civ have a pop capacity of 300 units more +15 if you train Cavalryman in that building you can get 6 extra units. If you train a Mauryan mercenary Elephant you can get 5 units.

If you train infantry you can get extra 15 units.

All these units can be Rebels, Pirates, faction rebels ( regular soldiers like Mauryan spearman, Thracian black coated, spy, assassins, Greek or Roman Siege machines, Pirate chips, Gladiators and whole units that you Civ may be can Access.

Can be Royal Stoa.

The units and tech you can have access can be depends of the map and cultural theme.

Can be Italian mercenary camp. Celtic mercenary camp, Thracian, Mauryan, Northafrican, middle Estern, etc. in Warcraft there are 30 differents mercenary camp.

And Mercenary camps it's only one of many of these buildings.

There in the spolier I put the creator description of Mercenary camp.

Here you will find ready fighters to join you. Many creeps that are otherwise belligerent in the wild can be bought here for a fee. Units hired will count against your overall food cap so you must have enough food to support them. You can construct buildings next to Mercenary Camps or have Wisps harvest Lumber within the control range of a Mercenary Camp in order to use the camp while your army is is away. You can also just leave a low level unit next to the camp. Using this method you can continue to buy units at the Mercenary Camp as they are available.

The Mercenaries available are determined by the map tileset. There are thirteen different Mercenary Camps.

W3 mercenary camp descri

Each line of Creeps represents a separate Mercenary Camp based on the tileset. Mercenaries may be listed more than once such as the Mud Golem and Ice Troll Berserker because they are available in multiple Mercenary Camps. Merc regeneration times are typically level/food cost of Merc * 50 sec. + 10 sec.

But this mercenary can not be Citizen Soldiers only soldiers. Several time ago I was one of the guys that talk the idea of mini factions but this is a complement.

But I don't want this idea can be only a good idea how give extra mercenary and eyecandy units.

#############################. Other neutral building that you can investigate units or train mercenary in w3 is:

Fountain of Heath

Can be a Fountaine in middle of a map that heal nearby units if aren't fighting.

W3:

Unlike with other Neutral Buildings, the Fountain of Health does not need to be activated by mouse clicking. Instead, the Fountain automatically regenerates the hit points of nearby Heroes and non-mechanical units.

Regenerate 1% of the unit's total Hit Points per second.

The other Building here is the Marketplace can be a building around a Silk Road, map where you can trade and gives better barter than you own market. In W3 is for hero items, not useful,for us.(yet).

All can be history acurates.

Wells in map desert can be useful for a battle desert, think in the defeat of Crassus against the Parthian in Arid map. The fountains are good to preserve our units.

Mercenary like Auxiliar Roman it's accurate, like a Rebel Army of Spartacus, or Cilicians Pirates, or Mercenary Thracians/Dacian/Numidian/Mauryan elephants, etc.

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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I think that this is a great idea, as it would A) Serve a solid gameplay purpose, B) Add flavor to the game and C) Allow the inclusion of units from interesting civilizations without having to actually go to the efforts of creating assets for an entire civilization.

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I agree with with Lion.Kanzen here.

I think this is a very accurate, realistic feature to have implemented.

Yeah like the AoE 3 we deal with provinces in each map, this buildings only deserves to player how conquer the land where is placed.

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Ok got, guys we had a problem to train mercenaries like we have a massive empire where they use complex mercenaries in their lands.

I provide in Romuluos mod use technology to unlock auxiliar regulars. We need two system of mercenaries one based in hypothetical fictional engagement like roman fighting Iberians in India wete I proposed local mercenary building and a ability based in a planned feature for call reinforcements.

My propose is add to GUI 3 additional buttons New panel, one of this button is reinforcement forces where you need preset of a reinforcement army like a deck in AOE 3, but the panel is similar of AoM and AoEO is a one panel in these games in upper bar menu.

Why 3 buttons , becuse these games have only 3 no more. Two of them can be a ability. And the third can be reinforcements.

I wrote this because is an inspiration have in this moment based my gamer experience. Be need based in AOE series because have most similar gameplay.

This can be use full to deals with non regular forces like Elephants in Some dynasty and specifically battles. Not available in all maps.

I'm based in history and gamer experience. Many of these forces are recruiting about large empire right like Dacians, Germans or others minifactions.(eye candy units from a specific ethnical or human groups ; like pirates, gladiators).

Why insist in mercenaries base in AOE 3?

because they have best variance of unit based in ethnical , history and human group) in AOE series.

See them, samurais, granadiers, Mayan and natives mercenaries, I enjoy have that, give the game more units where you can choose.

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Good points, the reinforcements are planned as you mentioned already. The mercenary idea I was not aware of before you sent me here to read it up. Thank you for the info.

The problem with the GUI is, I'd need it more dynamic, more flexible. Something like two panels:

  • A vertical dynamically fillable bar - directly below the hero icon (with a gap). There I plan to put in the subordinates of the unit you currently control. The reasons for this are:
    • To be able to see quickly the state of your direct subordinate armies. (and position)
    • To be able to read messages up quickly and easily and to see immediately from which subordinate the envy was sent. (Okay, The government/senate for the Roman Republic also needs an icon as it also sents messages frequently.)
    • To be able to send commands to subordinates quickly and/or answer questions (yes/no) in time for your military action not losing momentum.
  • Another icon for requesting reinforcements (essentially a shortcut for an envy being sent to the headquarters! so reinforcements will need time to arrive. If they will be sent of course. And if they are not destroyed or delayed underway.).

The importance of the vertical panel below the hero is that we will manage that in a list/vector .. so that we can add subordinates and armies on the fly. Perhaps even have it as a tree, so to access the subordinates of your subordinates.

The fountain of health will be covered by our plan for adding water as a resource/requirement for units. Units as I foresee it and work on need both food and water in their baggage otherwise they may starve slowly. This means we will have an inventory, that we solve by reusing the already existing prop functionality.

Uultimately this will lead to real physical resources like swords, arrows, javelins. A unit can always bear food and water and will automaticall resupply at wells and oasis as long as it's safe (no crododiles, not attacked, ...).

A unit may only bear as many javelins as its force/strength stats allow. Speed will be calculated as a function of the weight a unit is bearing. Yet another level of detail for realistic strategy. Will you strip your units of water and of armour to make them manoeuver more quickly?

The trade post idea is interesting. Also that fog of war will be relieved in the independent traders' surrounding.

The free soldiers/mini cultures are possible too - as the AI currently in development will also allow own citizens to leave its tribe/AI out of frustration, essentially settling on its own until it is subdued .. or is paying tribute for safety. We have a decentralized AI, that is the decisions are made by the units, not a central magic power. (Of course the now independent mini culture settlements will also have its own AI, just the usual one .. even the colours of the old tribe they belonged to will remain for a while .. then slowly turning into Gaia's colours as time passes by.)

In my opinion our ideas are worth the effort. Still I wish to keep it as real and non-data/input heavy as possible. Hence the dynamic GUI proposition, so that it's not hardcoded ... will save a lot of time.

There is another alternative way to gain support by foreign mercenaries: If you subdued a foreign tribe, they will not only pay tribute, they will also follow into war. This might lead to a rebelion, especially if the expedition/defensive action is unsuccessful and the subdued people lost a lot of warriors. It could also turn out as putting aside a rebellion as the subdued state might no longer have enough trained troops to be confident enough to start a largescale uprising.

A more close relation to allies whom you can bring presents and send envoys is also planned to make them more easily join your activities or fight a rearguard for you should the invasion fail and turn into hastened retreat.

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Regarding the mercenary camp, the idea would be for its architectural style to be "independent" or similar to that of a particular civilization native to each biome?

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Regarding the mercenary camp, the idea would be for its architectural style to be "independent" or similar to that of a particular civilization native to each biome?

Initially we can use 1 model and then start to differentiate them as we go along.

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Regarding the mercenary camp, the idea would be for its architectural style to be "independent" or similar to that of a particular civilization native to each biome?

Good questions in Age of Empires all are very diferent between, but have same space in map.

The differences here is the accuracy that we can get, if we don't found a example we use artistic license ( imagination) to create one.

Some can be abandoned buildings, other can be like a mix beteween barrack and fort.

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Good questions in Age of Empires all are very diferent between, but have same space in map.

The differences here is the accuracy that we can get, if we don't found a example we use artistic license ( imagination) to create one.

Some can be abandoned buildings, other can be like a mix beteween barrack and fort.

Personally, I think all merc camps should have the same /basic/ shape, just styled according to biome/culture.

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Cretans, Aetolians and Illyrians could work as pirates as well. And, yes, Iberians desperately need some way of access to arrow ships and bigger transport capacity.

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For know I need think how many units per training I mean how many tokens have the mercenary camp. May be 2 elite and 2 cheap/medium.

And how can be the capture of the building.

Finally how many units extra can support. The elephant can have 4 or siege class. 12 if is elite infantry 6 if is cavalry.

And if are cheap can be 15. Plus penalization of training. If you lost all units you can not train in 7min. Except cheaper

The Elite have big costs , cheaper less cost than regular. But I don't know about all this.

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I think something like the WC III system is great for mercenaries. The structure is invulnerable, non-capturable, you just need nearby units to activate the hiring (it's like a neutral shop where you can instantly purchase units). Makes sense since mercenaries go where the gold is, they don't have an owner. (If we want more realism we could make it destroyable, so one player could choose to purge the mercenary camp, but attacking it would mean the available units inside spawning as gaia to fight him).

Then on hiring, again WC III style, each unit has a different replenishment rate, number of maximum availability in the camp, and even a starting delay (so you can't hire elephants to rush within the second minute of the game), depending on the units strength. So it works like, once the starting delay time of a unit has passed, the first unit of that type is available for you to hire it. Then, when it's replenishment time has passed, the unit is available for hiring again, but only in numbers up to it's maximum availability, no matter how much time has passed. Warcraft has max available numbers from 1 to 3 for each mercenary, but it has a pop cap of 100, so we could have something like triple that number.

Another idea that came to mind, if mercenary camps are implemented, is moving several mercenary factional units to it and replace them with with some native unit in the civ's rooster. For example, Macedon has several unused cavalry units that that could replace the Thessalians if we move them to the mercenary camp, and Thessalians fought for other factions as well anyway.

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I believe this way it's even simpler than capturing. Just click and hire. You don't even have to wait for capturing or go to an isolated building to set a training queue and wait for the units to come little by little, nor you have to guard it from attacks, it's just available to whoever sends a unit there. Only programming-wise it might be a little more complex.

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And how can be the capture of the building.

The capturing can be just like the other capturing .. if the health/condition of the building is low enough and it is overpowered by enemey units (also calculated via their health). Then the building changes the owner. This way you even might have some time to relieve the siege.

Plus penalization of training. If you lost all units you can not train in 7min. Except cheaper

Interesting. Happy I read this.

I think something like the WC III system is great for mercenaries. The structure is invulnerable, non-capturable, you just need nearby units to activate the hiring (it's like a neutral shop where you can instantly purchase units). Makes sense since mercenaries go where the gold is, they don't have an owner. (If we want more realism we could make it destroyable, so one player could choose to purge the mercenary camp, but attacking it would mean the available units inside spawning as gaia to fight him).

Isn't a mercenary camp for the training? And those well might have an owner. So if you decide to have more training capabilities for mercenaries then you have more mercenary camps.

What you talk about are the mercenaries itself and those of course go where they were drawn to for whatever reasons.

Or if there is a foreign tribe (eyecandy or what you call it) then you might go to their chief's hut and ask for troops. Well, you might be forced out or even lose you envy if the tribe isn't please with your bid (and you brought no presents or wanted to exploit them (paid badly? wanted to draw/recruit too many units?) ...

Those then of course are neutral.

But in general I doubt that a mercenary camp is neutral, standing around in the countryside, waiting until a leader comes and asks for help ... (if it were like that why then train units? why not get the recruits immediately .. they had time enough to be trained already ...)

I believe this way it's even simpler than capturing. Just click and hire. You don't even have to wait for capturing or go to an isolated building to set a training queue and wait for the units to come little by little, nor you have to guard it from attacks, it's just available to whoever sends a unit there. Only programming-wise it might be a little more complex.

I also think it should not be captured, even though I think it could be captured ... you should be able to build it. Then it could be captured by other units if they overpower you. That's easiest to integrate I think.

I think we should keep it very simple. Keep in mind that every time you introduce a new feature, you are adding more management for the player to take care of.

That's why I wish to introduce the decentralised AI ... it can assist you if you wish. What do you think of simply having mercenaries like it is and the mercenary camp just like a usual building for training those recruited mercenaries. Because though I've heard of mercenaries carrying around their baggage and women I've not heard of them carrying around complete houses. :)

Interesting will be to hire troops from Gaia or neutral "eye-candy" tribes.

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I think we should keep it very simple. Keep in mind that every time you introduce a new feature, you are adding more management for the player to take care of. (y)

And thats a bad thing? :search:

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But in general I doubt that a mercenary camp is neutral, standing around in the countryside, waiting until a leader comes and asks for help ... (if it were like that why then train units? why not get the recruits immediately .. they had time enough to be trained already ...)

That's not true. There were regions were mercenaries gathered awaiting to be hired, for example Cape Tainaron in ancient Greece, (south of Sparta). I actually proposed instant hiring, not training:)

Edited by Prodigal Son

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