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Arnthor

Germanic faction(s)

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I just made some concepts. To the left there are 2 different sets for houses, a farmstead and a scout tower, and to the right different models for a civic centre.

I thought I already had seen those left houses in-game. Am I correct?

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@Le Druid nice job.

Thanks, Lion.Kanzen :) I was wondering if the Germanic temple would be a simple rock circle, since there are not much evidences regarding them having temple structures. Does anybody have a reference?

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suebian-knot

tumblr_mb9zpb4d7b1qg9hp3o1_500.jpg

Shall we make the knot-binding the idle animation?

Huns, Sarmatians and Parthians. And obviusly three Roman factions imperial Romans with the late Western and eastern Roman Empire.

And Sarmatians have many other. And Huns too.

What about introducing a point of time in the xml, from which on the Engine starts to pick selections/variants from these textures, weaponry/props, ..too. This could result in a quite fluent transient.
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Hands can't even be closed ;) But you could fake it. It will look bad for very few graphical improvement.

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:-) just an idea. Don't even really understand how they do it. Before animating it I had to practice it alot I guess. Surely I had to ask for help from the gentle gender.

Alternatively we could animate a jongleuring movement with colourful balls. Or doing weapon tricks like throwing up in air, .. perhaps even a torch? Or gathering mushroom as idle animation? :D My favorite.

What about introducing a point of time in the xml, from which on the Engine starts to pick selections/variants from these textures, weaponry/props, ..too. This could result in a quite fluent transient.

Perhaps we need an (epoch/upshowing in history) terminating point of time too. So that the engine knew when to choose the variant less often.

Or simply by introducing more new clothes that those overwhelm the past technological achievments/selections/variants. Then no termination point of time had to be given. Though I think there were things that lasted a long time, like water wells or stone masonry. While others like full-armour-knights not lasted too long.

So a termination point for each variant might make sense. With a variant I mean everything: Actors, textures, .. all that should have a start and end point from which on the engine chooses often from within these variants.

This would ultimately give us the flow of time. Without hard epoch changes.

Btw. anyone knows how to alternate between dark and day maps? Because there are night and day maps I was wondering if this couldn't be reused for creating a flow between night and day by time?

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Not sure? What do you think?

As a multimesh is not allowed, we need each ball to be a separate prop. Can be attached to one and the same prop point, hence bone. Best not the moving think, so the neck or the spine would be suitable.

Then each of these ball needs a in respect to circle around in the same manner. Could even use one ball and vary texture/colour via pyrogenesis random selections.

Then pyrogenesis should also make the animation start in a offset, best homogenuous to make the arm movement animation of (Enrique's breakthrough) blender biped easy.

Still wonder if it could be done easier and with more variation. E.g. make the biped almost let fall one ball. This might be difficult though and one ball animation might no longer be enough.

Ah, yes, the animation speed should probably be uniform too unless we manage the biped arm movement in a way that it looks semirealistic in all cases, no matter when a ball comes near.

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I believe for it to be worth the effort it should bring something like a bonus of motivation to the population or else be in a neutral village. not just a unit you put there or there it could be a small theatron with flame throwers and jongleurs. The main problem I see is that it's not like the Settlers where all units are bound to be a city. Every unit is bound to his task doesn't have to eat or anything.

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So we need a circling ball with animation. And a way to attach multiple of these props to the head, spine or neck prop point.

The distance from the body will be defined by the most natural arm movement animation. So we probably have to do this first.

I like it to have them as free units. Could have an aura attached - just like heroes. Can later raise morale once we have this unit attribute.

The main problem I see is that it's not like the Settlers where all units are bound to be a city. Every unit is bound to his task doesn't have to eat or anything.

We will change this thing.

Should the unit always be juggling or be like a catapult, unpacking and packing? Can start with the former for ease I guess.

Flame throwers .. interesting. Really that's something for a small wandering/nomadic people (mini faction). Or something like a neutral trader. We could make them escort the traders. Also the ox-supply-wagons. But this could be left to the user too (via guarding option).

If one general one would be enough for all factions? Probably we could reuse the factions already created and only concentrate on the animation at first. Something like an idle animation variant. Then we can add a separate Actor file?

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So we need a circling ball with animation. And a way to attach multiple of these props to the head, spine or neck prop point.The distance from the body will be defined by the most natural arm movement animation. So we probably have to do this first.I like it to have them as free units. Could have an aura attached - just like heroes. Can later raise morale once we have this unit attribute. We will change this thing.Should the unit always be juggling or be like a catapult, unpacking and packing? Can start with the former for ease I guess.Flame throwers .. interesting. Really that's something for a small wandering/nomadic people (mini faction). Or something like a neutral trader. We could make them escort the traders. Also the ox-supply-wagons. But this could be left to the user too (via guarding option).If one general one would be enough for all factions? Probably we could reuse the factions already created and only concentrate on the animation at first. Something like an idle animation variant. Then we can add a separate Actor file?

we need that gameplay and wagon/building system.
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The further we are going the more I realise why this game is still in alpha stage. The gameplay is going to change radically.

While I think about it ; We need an animation list.

Edited by stanislas69

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Our Cherusci group has been Defunct for a while, but one or two of them have come back.

A better bet on Early Germans would be to find a book on them. Osprey's Rome and Her Enemies gives some General Info.

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Open Air Reconstructed Germanic Settlement in Austria (Freilichtmuseum Elsarn):

http://www.freilichtmuseum-elsarn.at/cms/website.php?id=/de/index.htm

To make it easier to non-German speakers, here is the link to their photo gallery of reconstructed Germanic buildings:

http://www.freilichtmuseum-elsarn.at/cms/website.php?id=fotogalerie/galerien/gebaude.php

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On 4/22/2019 at 8:37 PM, Genava55 said:

@av93 Ok I have consider a bit about it and maybe we can call them "Early Germans" (Proto-Germans is a bit ugly) and we can use my idea about the Marcomanni as a confederation and alliance of different tribes. This factions should represents the "Germans" from the Pre-Roman Era and the beginning of the Roman Era, up to the Marcomannic wars.

However, what this faction will bring as new mechanics ? Maybe I have an idea. What about a customizable roster for the player through tribes choices in his confederation/alliance?

For example each tribe could brings three units and the player can choose three tribes from a list. Each tribe having some generic units in common and some unique units. For example the Cherusci have cheap pikemen (yes, there are sources about it), the Cimbri have a chainmail swordsman champion, the Tencteri have a champion cavalry unit, the Lugii have a Celtic like unit, the Suebi have a spearman and strong javelinists etc. etc.

I like the idea of customizable roster, it reminds me of AoM. This only an idea I throw here. What do you think about it? 

Thread: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25730-concept-task-cimbrians-ambrones-teutons/&do=findComment&comment=373419

Useful source: http://elfinspell.com/TacitusGermanyContents.html

And: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Annals_(Tacitus)

Discussion about Cherusci pikemen: http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.php/gladius/article/download/287/290

Early Germanic Warfare: https://www.jstor.org/stable/650090?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

Cimbri material: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25730-concept-task-cimbrians-ambrones-teutons/&do=findComment&comment=373394

Przeworsk: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/25186-iron-age-pre-and-proto-germanic-bibliography/&tab=comments#comment-366650

Germanic populations were not uniform and could have spoken different languages with different degrees of development from Proto-Germanic and with different loans from others languages. Moreover, the Przeworsk culture (associated with the Lugii) has a strong relationship with the La Tène culture and we have have no understanding of its consequences on the language of these populations. The Jastorf culture group is one of the most known, mostly thanks to Kossinna's work, but is based on a typology for potteries and fibula. Cremation burials is not an unique particularity coming from the Jastorf culture, so the narrative often seen in forum that the origin of the modern Germans comes from this culture is wrong. The Jastorf culture is old and was contemporary of the Hallstatt culture, it started to spread in Poland but got replaced by the Przeworsk culture during the third century BC. Contrary to the Przeworsk culture, the Jastorf burials have very little weapons. In the North, Upper-Denmark and Scandinavia have a lot of weapons, even chainmails and Celtic longswords. These region are not "Jastorf" although. In contrary, there is as much Jastorf than Eastern influence (Przeworsk, Oksywie and Pomeranian), and even Celtic influence through the Nord Sea. For the Rhine, Weser and Netherlands regions, there are numerous small cultural groups, always influenced by the La Tène culture before the 1st century BC and by the Jastorf after. Their language seems to have evolved and to have mixed Celtic and Germanic dialects, as it is possible to seen multiples Germanic tribes with Celtic etymology (Usipetes, Tencteri, Ubii etc.).

Romans seem to have both overgeneralized the Germanic populations while specifying differences. The word "German" is known to have been a made-up label by the Romans (mostly Caesar) to highlight the natural border of the Rhine. It could have come from a name used by the Tungri, the first Germans Cis-Rhenani, and mistakenly applied to every tribes from the other side of the Rhine. Tacitus highlight the existences of two huge groups of Germanic populations: the Suebi and the Lugii. The former's territory is known to have been a place of numerous elite burials with few weapons, probably thanks to the Romans payments to maintain security. While the latter is known for the numerous weapons burials of the Przeworsk. However, Tacitus specify clearly which tribes belongs to these groups and so the tribes that are different. Most of them are different, clearly suggesting an important diversity during the 1st century AD. Since Augustus, Jutland was characterized by being the home of the Cimbri, relabeled Cimbrian promontory although there are different tribes there. The migration of the Cimbri is very possibly related to the Przeworsk culture, which could explains a lot of their "Celticity", acquired by alliance during their travel.

This important diversity of the cultures, the important diversity of the warfare techniques, the poor military equipment (almost no helmet, bones and wooden weapons, wooden clubs, axes) and the poor urbanistic development of the Early "Germans" make the choice of regrouping them in an unique faction very difficult. Generally, video games put everything in the Suebi group and represent only this cultural group because it is easier, with the result they become the German standard. Although they take whatever they can from other tribes and other era to complement the faction, resulting with a strange mix of something that never existed. Finally, Germans is a label mainly used to describe the tribes of the migration period, when the Germanic identity has been built up by several centuries of symbolic and cultural opposition against the Roman Empire. It is far easier to divide these populations in different group like Goths, Franks, Saxons, Alemanni etc. with their own characteristics, it is sometimes what is done in videogames (like in Attila Total War). However I found it funny because the cultural distance between the Goths, the Franks, the Saxons and the Alemanni is smaller than between the Suebi, the Lugii and the Rhine germans. So, be careful with the Early Germans if you want to represent something that most closely reflects reality. Sadly, it doesn't exist any visual representation of the Lugii, of the Pomeranian or of the Rhine Germans that differentiate them of the Suebi. There is no turnkey designs, easy to understand and to apply.  

Summary (a few words, to be completed):

General: Polyvalent spearman using the framae (frames), slingers.

Rhine-Weser tribes: A region with a few helmets and La Tène longswords, important iron production, zone of contact and trade.

Batavi: Strong horsemen and infantrymen. Batavian Revolt and Siege of Castra Vetera. Slinger horsemen.

Chatti: Strong infantry, one of the best. Long hair and beard, cut only after their first kill. Discipline. Both Celtic and Germanic spearheads in the region.

Tencteri: Swift cavalry, very experimented. Both accounted by Tacitus and Caesar.

Nordsea tribes:

Frisii: Correct cavalry (used as irregular auxiliaries). Warriors venerating Baduhenna. Leather production for the exportation (Romans)

Chauci: Noblest and less warlike tribe according to Tacitus (but ready to war). Correct infantry and cavalry, dense population.

Cherusci: Ariminius tribe. Known pikemen. Strong infantrymen. Osiers woven shields. Little armor and helmets. A lot of javeliners and slingers.

Suebian tribes (Elbe): Most influential group in the late period (Roman Empire era). Characterized by a Suebian knot. A lot of noble burials in the Roman era.

Langobardi: Long beards. Small number but strong. One-edged Germanic swords found in their territory. Hound's clan possible symbol.

Semnones: Most religious and strongest authority among the Suebians. Not a lot of military fates although.

Marcomanni: Strong cavalry. Little armor, barbed javelins, wooden clubs, germanic swords. Bravest of the Suebi.

East tribes: Strong military archaeology since 2nd century BC (among the earliest). Late Celtic helmets. Zone of numerous warrior burials (but less prestigious than the Suebi burials, more warlike however).

Lugiones: Spread tribe, most common mercenaries in the Germanic world. A lot of La Tène weapons.

Bastarnae: Strong cavalry, bear-skin bearer horseman burial, Celtic longsword, mixed cavalry with light infantry.

Harii: Famous night warriors with body painted and black shields.

Pomeranian tribes:

Lemovii: Round shields and short Germanic swords.

Rugii: Round shields and short Germanic swords.

Teutones: Balt/Pomeranian according to Pytheas. Swords.

Aestii: Axe female warrior.

Nordic tribes: Strong military archaeology since 3rd century BC (among the earliest). A lot of noble burials and high prestige goods from trading.

Suiones: Powerful fleet. Axe, bow in burial.

Cimbri: Early swordsmen (Celtic sword and Germanic swords), Noblemen (Chainmail), Bone javelinhead, Celtic spearheads.

 

Pictures:

Spoiler

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Jutland, Lake Mosso, Alken Enge

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image.thumb.jpeg.f46980efc82079ec383a4434e9496f2f.jpeg48aa8035387520a087581700f912a8fb.thumb.jpg.4b6ebfd42a1c61c063c57a0ffa775fbf.jpg7cc1303561fd3ca17ca39bd132084a76.thumb.jpg.6da27a035b458f69db100ea1d92ab868.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by Genava55
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About the possible units that this faction could have:

MELEE INFANTERY:

- Spearman (basic, advance, elite)

- clubman (basic, advance, elite)

- Axeman (basic, advance, elite)

MISSILE INFANTERY

- Archer (basic, advance,elite)

- Javelinist (basic, advance,elite)

- Slinger (basic, advance,elite), debatable

MELEE CAVALRY

- spearman cavalry (basic, advance, elite)

MISSILE CAVALRY

- Javelinist cavalry (basic, advance, elite)

CHAMPION

- Swordman (noble germanic infantery)

- Berserker (debatable)

- Women archer

- Noble cavalry spearman

SIEGE

- Mechanical siege ram

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