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Mythos_Ruler

Crowd-Sourced Civ: Seleucids

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Okay, this totally might be false, but I have a few comment about the Romanized Swords.

I still think they should be referred as Argyraspides Romahicos, because the 5,000 swords seen at Daphne were taken from the 10,000 Argyrasdpides Phalangites (its is mentioned that there were only 5,000 of the phalangite silver shields present).  

But I think that they should mostly be wearing chain mail (I know some of the actors are, but a lot of them have a linothorax)

And this one might not have a good reception, but I think they should have a scutum-like shield. Or at least one similar to a Hastatus. Because it's stated that Antiochus IV loved all things roman, which is why he decided to reform the infantry. It think it's weird that if he loved all this roman stuff so much as to directly copy it, he wouldn't copy the shield, which is arguably one of the most innovative parts of the Hastatus.  But that is all just my opinion, it might be totally wrong, but it seems no-one (sourcewise) seems to know exactly how the Silver Shield Swords were equipped, besides them having chain mail.

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37 minutes ago, Phalanx said:

And this one might not have a good reception, but I think they should have a scutum-like shield. Or at least one similar to a Hastatus. Because it's stated that Antiochus IV loved all things roman, which is why he decided to reform the infantry.

Where is the limit? Should they have used pilum and montefortino helmets?

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10 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Where is the limit? Should they have used pilum and montefortino helmets?

Yep, that is a fair question. I honestly have no idea. I cannot find any sources about what they actually had.

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I was thinking something along these lines. I found a single source describing the Romanized Seleucid Shield as a scutum-like shield, not a thureos, but that is only a single source.

63M1YBW.jpg

d7c678d6447a52bb310d71bbf67cf881.jpg

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Polybius 30.25 : 1 This same king when he heard of the games celebrated in Macedonia by Aemilius Paullus the Roman general, ambitious of surpassing Paullus in magnificence sent out embassies and sacred missions to the towns to announce the games he was about to give at Daphne, so that people in Greece were very eager to visit Antioch then. 2 The festival opened with a procession composed as follows: 3 It was headed by five thousand men in the prime of life armed after the Roman fashion and wearing breastplates of chain-armour. Next came five thousand Mysians, 4 and immediately behind them three thousand Cilicians armed in the manner of light infantry, wearing gold crowns. 5 Next came three thousand Thracians and five thousand Gauls. They were followed by twenty thousand Macedonians of whom ten thousand bore golden shields,  p145 five thousand brazen shields and the rest silver shields. 6 Next marched two hundred and fifty pairs of gladiators, and behind them a thousand horsemen from Nisa and three thousand from Antioch itself, most of whom had crowns and trappings of gold and the rest trappings of silver. Next to these came the so‑called "companion cavalry," numbering about a thousand, all with gold trappings, and next the regiment of "royal friends" of equal number and similarly accoutred; next a thousand picked horse followed by the so‑called "agema", supposed to be the crack cavalry corps, numbering about a thousand. Last of all marched the "cataphract" or mailed horse, the horses and men being armed in complete mail, as the name indicated. All the above wore purple surcoats in many cases embroidered with gold and heraldic designs. 11 Next came a hundred chariots drawn by six horses and forty drawn by four horses, and then a chariot drawn by four elephants and another drawn by a pair, and finally thirty-six elephants in single file with their housings.

Book - THE SELEUCID ARMY Organization and Tactics in the Great Campaigns: "The Seleucid phalanx at Beith-Zacharia is indeed described by I Macc, as 'equipped with chain mail' , but the source, perhaps an eye witness, was evidently carried away by the sight of the one contingent armed in Roman style, which is recorded as being similarly equipped at Daphne (Polyb. 30.25.3). The generalization may also be attributable to the positioning of the 'Roman' infantry in the advance 'elephant divisions', which were first to enter the defile (see p.181 below)."

Probably that the most "extraordinary" fashion for observers at that time is the chain mail, not usually adopted by the Hellenes. I cannot rule out the possibility that it is simply Thorakitai slightly inspired by the Romans.

Edited by Genava55
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On 9/26/2019 at 3:36 AM, Phalanx said:

I was thinking something along these lines. I found a single source describing the Romanized Seleucid Shield as a scutum-like shield, not a thureos, but that is only a single source.

63M1YBW.jpg

d7c678d6447a52bb310d71bbf67cf881.jpg

Hmm, I am thinking of something like, Hellenistic styled tunic and boots, then a lorica hamata and subarmalis.

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@wackyserious

I was searching Numidians and I found a source.

image.png.2c4aa76dc9f4de8bbb81990d7d52173c.pngimage.png.98558ad48d3c0a1b371f00dd10c8c653.png

 

check the Phalangite  with asiatic influence .

Quote

This figure is based on two terracotta plaques found in Campania, showing troops in a mixture of Macedonian and Asiatic dress and equipment which suggests they are from a Greek army in the east, probably the Seleucid. Alexander’s Persian phalangites, the Successors’ Asian pantodapoi, Mithridates V1 of Pontos’ later troops, would probably be similar. The trousers are a sure sign of “‘barbarian”’ influence, and a figure on the other plaque adds long sleeves. The cuirass bends with the movement of the body, showing it to be linen or leather rather than plate. There seems no warrant for the view that infantry of the Hellenistic kingdoms changed to metal armour, as is sometimes suggested. Asklepiodotos mentions corselets, as does Plutarch describing Philopoimen’s Achaians, but neither say they were metal, and their wording would be equally appropriate to leather. Conversely, illustrations of infantry in non-metallic corselets are common, while most of those shown in plate cuirasses wear officers’ waist sashes. It seems general practice, then, that only officers wore metal armour. Confirmation for the Seleucids is provided by reliefs of warriors in similar corselets to this figure’s, from near Ephesos, possibly from the tomb of Antiochos II Theos, who died there in 246. They have short sleeves and bare legs; most have crested Attic helmets in contrast to the uncrested Thracian type shown here and in 37a (from coins of the Seleucid usurper Tryphon, 142-139) though one of the Ephesos figures does wear the helmet in 37b. Perhaps the Ephesos figures are based on the argyraspides, the Seleucid guard infantry, who might be expected to present a more Hellenic appearance, with bare legs and greaves, and to wear crests. They fought “armed in the Macedonian manner” as phalangites. Except for an uncertain reference to a forced march in Bactria, they are not often found on mobile operations such as Alexander's hypaspists had been used for; they were not used, for instance, when Antiochos III stormed mountain passes. There is thus no reason to believe that they had an alternative lighter style of weaponry in Alexandrian style.

 

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