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Crowd-Sourced Civ: Seleucids

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16 minutes ago, Nescio said:

We know they were settlers, i.e. had land in a κληρουχία “klērouchia”. But in 0 A.D. military colonies are basically glorified mercenary camps.

I wish we had a spawning feature. We could do something interesting with the military colony concept (perhaps they spawn free settler infantry or something).

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@Nescio: thanks for your thoughts.

There should be some options open, such as a Royal Stable for recruiting both the Scythed Chariot and Cataphract. Or the chariot can be built in the Workshop. and the companion cavalry be placed in a Barracks/Stable. With this, kleroukha can recruit settler cavalry (with different statistics, since they have shields) instead of hetairos.

As soon as turrets (or similar garrisoning code) is implemented, the chariot archer (armored, "champion" or "elite citizen") can be (1) upgraded from a mercenary Syrian archer through an upgrade in the Barracks, or (2) recruited directly from the Fortress.In @wowgetoffyourcellphone's Delenda Est there's this Neo-Cretan archer which in my opinion a settler like the Macedonian "settler" cavalry?

This would leave the faction with the most champions (or units altogether) though. Chrysaspides can be the elite/fourth promotion of Chalkaspides (or the other way around) given that gold was a symbol of status.

Edited by Carltonus
Fixing second paragraph
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2 hours ago, Carltonus said:

This would leave the faction with the most champions (or units altogether) though. Chrysaspides can be the elite/fourth promotion of Chalkaspides (or the other way around) given that gold was a symbol of status.

I think this is up for some debate, since silver has more status than gold in Hellenistic times and the "Bronze Shields" was a smaller regiment than the "Gold Shields" circumstantially insinuating more "status." It's all very jumbled from what we moderns would think. I am not sure about the relative "worth" of each metal in ancient times. The ancients could very well view the different metals differently than we do, possibly based upon rarity (maybe silver was harder to mine than gold in ancient times). I've read scant evidence regarding precious stones too. It's probable that gold was indeed more "rare" than silver even in ancient times, but the "status" came from Alexander's initial use of silver to gild his Hypaspists in India. Silver, being more abundant, was better to use in a bulk application such as coinage and shield gilding. 

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Quote

There should be some options open, such as a Royal Stable for recruiting both the Scythed Chariot and Cataphract. Or the chariot can be built in the Workshop. and the companion cavalry be placed in a Barracks/Stable. With this, kleroukha can recruit settler cavalry (with different statistics, since they have shields) instead of hetairos.

Most definitely, the core team should look to DE for some inspiration. "Royal Stables" and such things would be very cool.

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3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Most definitely, the core team should look to DE for some inspiration. "Royal Stables" and such things would be very cool.

The icon must be Hellenistic mask.

image.png.d0b1c1709ec875c3523e2d20d5ca96c2.png

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Mmm I wonder if the Illyrian helmet is the best choice for a Syrian archer in the Seleucid army.

 

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2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Mmm I wonder if the Illyrian helmet is the best choice for a Syrian archer in the Seleucid army.

Probably not. lol

I'm thinking uncrested Hellenistic Thracian helmets (for Neocretan settler archers).

3ed69a53a8643d03bb7b34a77c892b2f.jpg

 

Perhaps the Persian conical helmet or some kind of Hellenistic-Persian hybrid helmet for native "Syrian" archers?

 

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone

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30 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Probably not. lol

I'm thinking uncrested Hellenistic Thracian helmets (for Neocretan settler archers).

3ed69a53a8643d03bb7b34a77c892b2f.jpg

 

Perhaps the Persian conical helmet or some kind of Hellenistic-Persian hybrid helmet for native "Syrian" archers?

 

Ohh, so the current ones in the roster, what exactly are they? Neocretan settlers or Native Syrian archers? Design document says Syrian, that is why I presented this concept for it.

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In vanilla the Syrian Archers are native mercenaries recruited from kleroukha. Delenda Est has them recruitable in faction mercenary camps, and the neo-Cretan archers are recruited as citizen-soldiers in the Archery Range and kleroukha.

Here's one proposition if a Royal Stable is implemented:

  • Barracks: Thureos Spearman, Chalkaspides/Chrysaspides, Hypaspist? (swordsman), Arab Javelineer (Thureos if Arab is a mercenary), Polis Cavalry, Dahae Horse Archer
    • Archery Range (mod): Arab Javelineer, Neo-Cretan Archer (Syrian if no Mercenary Camp; Neo-Cretan to be placed in kleroukha), Chariot/Elephant Archer?
    • (Edit) Camel Stable (mod): Camel Spearman, Camel Archer
    • Mercenary Camp (mod): Thracian Swordsman, Syrian Archer (if not in kleroukha), (Edit) Galatian cavalry, Dahae Horse Archer, Tarantine cavalry
  • Stable: Polis Cavalry, Hetairos, Cataphract, Scythed Chariot
  • Royal Stable: Hetairos (if no Stable in mod), Cataphract, Scythed Chariot
  • Fortress: Argyraspides, Romanized Thorakites, Chariot/Elephant Archer, War Elephant (if no Elephant Stable in mod), Gastraphetes
  • Kleroukha: Thureos Spearman?, Thureos Javelineer, Thracian Swordsman, Syrian Archer (Neo-Cretan Archer if mercenary camps are in mod), (Edit) Galatian cavalry?, Macedonian Settler Cavalry? (Hetairos if you don't want to hire from a Royal Stable)

Should a Seleucid Royal Stable be captured by another faction, as a special building, it should train chariots (regardless of class) and champion cavalry. Found out that Stables are standard in Alpha 24, so no Royal Stable may be needed.

Edited by Carltonus
(1) Expanding with sword cavalry, camelry; (2) Stables are standard in Alpha 24

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4 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Mmm I wonder if the Illyrian helmet is the best choice for a Syrian archer in the Seleucid army.

 

Not sure if Syrian archers should use shields, i think it was more of a Cretan thing (At most  they could have some wicker shields).

Edited by Ultimate Aurelian
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1 hour ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Not sure if Syrian archers should use shields, i think it was more of a Cretan thing (At most  they could have some wicker shields).

I agree. Pretty much the only archers to use shields would be any of the Cretan variants (Neo-Cretan Archers, Cretan Archers, Cretan Mercenary Archers, Cretan Settler Archers, whatever). :) 

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In Bar-Kochva (1976) on the Seleucid Army:

image.png.e83476a041f1d1106ac1be7e28488cf2.png

 

So it seems that Persian archers and Neo-Cretan archers are the most credible possibilities.

Edited by Genava55
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On 5/15/2020 at 12:24 AM, Carltonus said:

the chariot archer (armored, "champion" or "elite citizen") can be (1) upgraded from a mercenary Syrian archer through an upgrade in the Barracks

 Historically chariots were functionally different from both infantry and cavalry; upgrading from one unit type to an entirely different one is probably not a good idea.

In 0 A.D. chariots are basically cavalry champions with a larger footprint. I hope that at some point in the future chariot templates will be properly separated from cavalry, and that scythed chariots become melee units, instead of archers.

On 5/15/2020 at 12:24 AM, Carltonus said:

Neo-Cretan archer

12 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I agree. Pretty much the only archers to use shields would be any of the Cretan variants (Neo-Cretan Archers, Cretan Archers, Cretan Mercenary Archers, Cretan Settler Archers, whatever). :) 

Neo-Cretans (Νεόκρητες) were indeed a thing in Hellenistic warfare, serving alongside Cretans (Κρῆτες) in the Aetolian (Plb 5.3.1), Ptolemaic (Plb 5.65.7), and Seleucid (Plb 5.79.10) armies, presumably also in others (e.g. Antigonid Macedon, Attalid Pergamon). Both Cretans and Neo-Cretans were mercenary archers performing the same function.

Now ancient sources don't mention the difference between the two, allowing modern people to speculate a lot. In my view most interpretations are not based on anything; the most probably explanation is that the Neo-Cretans were young men (νέος means “youth”); different age groups are not something uncommon to Greek societies (as is also the case elsewhere in the world in different times).

Regardless, I don't think 0 A.D. needs two different Cretan units.

19 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Thoughts on the Syrian archers of the Seleucids wearing trousers and scale armor?

@Nescio

15 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Ohh, so the current ones in the roster, what exactly are they? Neocretan settlers or Native Syrian archers? Design document says Syrian, that is why I presented this concept for it.

The design document is not always correct. Syrian archers are not explicitly mentioned in Polybius or other texts I know of. There is no need to invent something that is unattested. I think it's best to simply use Persian archers or Cretan mercenaries for the Seleucids.

On 5/15/2020 at 12:24 AM, Carltonus said:

Chrysaspides can be the elite/fourth promotion of Chalkaspides (or the other way around) given that gold was a symbol of status.

On 5/15/2020 at 3:07 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think this is up for some debate, since silver has more status than gold in Hellenistic times and the "Bronze Shields" was a smaller regiment than the "Gold Shields" circumstantially insinuating more "status."

While the “silver shields” are well attested, the Seleucid “gold shields” are mentioned in a corrupt sentence (Polybius 30.25.5). I don't think including the latter in 0 A.D. is a good idea.

B. Bar-Kochva Judas Maccabaeus: The Jewish Struggle Against the Seleucids (Cambridge 1989) discusses his view in a footnote:

Spoiler


BBK417.thumb.png.1ac91e343188a97e2eaad4262ee8b8d2.png

Basically he argues that (i) “10,000 gold shields” must be inserted in the Greek text and (ii) that gold means brass.

(i) allows him to deduce that the following silver shields were only 5000 in number, while earlier under Antiochus III they had a strength of 10,000, thus he concludes the 5000 Roman-style youths must be the other half, and therefore Antiochus IV must have been in the process of retraining his army from Macedonian-style pikemen into Roman-style swordsmen.

(ii) is even more problematic: χρυσός means gold, certainly not brass, whereas χαλκός means copper or anything made from copper, hence bronze, arms, weapons etc. Treating bronze and brass as entirely different things is anachronistic, both are copper-alloys, and in practice metals contained impurities and had no fixed ratios; basically both bronze and brass are covered by χαλκός (cf. English “brazen”), as are other copper-based materials, though Greek does have a word ὀρείχαλκος (Latin orichalcum) “mountain-copper”, i.e. yellow copper ore, copper, or brass made from it. In any case, brass is not gold.

To me Bar-Kochva's interpretation seems a case of someone really wanting to read a lot more than what's in the text. That said, others apparently accept his view, and the Wikipedia article presents it as fact.

On 4/23/2020 at 9:15 PM, Nescio said:

That would basically be saying twice the same; just φαλαγγίτης “phalangitēs” is fine.

D2736 (@Stan`?)

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On 5/15/2020 at 11:03 PM, wackyserious said:

051620 - Syrian Archers.jpg

Thoughts on the Syrian archers of the Seleucids wearing trousers and scale armor?

@Nescio

did @Alexandermb model these chalkidian helmets variants. Can someone provide some closeups of them.!

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I cant seem to find those variants on his artstation and either here on the forums on the Hellenic helmets topic. Only the attached ones which are somewhat older era. 

image.png.3fea783e89ca88e53ea7e2234cb64a41.png

image.png.b6fefcff543cf57d2c3c555c3e44664e.png

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