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Atenmeses52

Possible Mod Idea: Nabataeans/Lihyanites

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So I have little to no technical or artistic experience but I know a lot about Ancient Near Eastern Civilizations and I was thinking that having the Nabataeans or their predecessors the Lihyanites included in gameplay would be kind of neat... They were a major trading power between the Eastern Empires of Assyria, babylonia, Persia, Phoenicia, and Egypt and the Western Empires such as Macedonia and even Rome. Their major cities were Petra (the most famous) and Mada'in Saleh, but also had outposts all over present day Israel, Jordan, Palestine, and Northern Saudi Arabia/the Hejaz. There is a great exhibit on them and other Arabian trade kingdoms at the Sackler Gallery in Washington DC if anyone is interested. Here are some photos of Nabataean architechture:

nabataean-temple-500.jpg

Tombs at Madain Saleh (Below) A Temple at Petra (above)

discovering-saudi-arabia-madin-saleh-cap-arabie.jpg

A building in a minor Nabataean city

Petra_375.JPG

The one below is in a series of photos of Petra

http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulmannix/3482513029/

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Hmm. Looks interesting. How do you intend to handle the buildings in cliffs? I thought they were unique structures like in Petra, but your photos suggest to me that Ancient Arabs build their cities inside cliffs on a regular basis. Which is awesome, but kind of hard to portray in terms of gameplay.

What would be their civ traits? Something about trade for the first one and maybe a bonus on desert terrain for the second one?

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I was thinking we could just have the building model include a cliff (It would look weird in biomes other than desert and savannah and maybe mediterranean though). For smaller buildings I was going to just have them be modeled after southern Arabian (specifically Ancient Yemeni) buildings, which are themselves very similar to the cliffside dwellings of Northern Arabia, except they are detached and free-standing.

As far as civ traits go, I have one done already-- The Rose Red City. This gives the buildings a defense bonus because of the fact that Nabataean buildings were carved into cliffs, which are awfully hard to destroy :) !

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I have two things that I'd like feedback on.

1) I did a prototype of a possible house model for this mod. Here it is. It's in collada format already. http://www.2shared.com/file/Cnvukikc/Nabataean_House_Prototype.html

2) I attempted to write a .json civilization file for the Nabataeans using the info from my research and design document. Here it is. http://www.2shared.com/file/fEBQTP_A/naba.html

I also did a placeholder emblem for the Nabataeans... that's what the emblem file is in the above .json

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For the lazy:

Atenmeses' House Model:

post-2104-0-10878700-1357334855_thumb.pn

Nabataeans Civ Profile:

{

"Code":"naba",

"Culture": "naba",

"Name":"Nabataeans",

"Emblem":"session/portraits/emblems/emblem_nabataeans.png",

"History":"The Nabataeans were ancient peoples of North Arabia, whose oasis settlements in AD 37 – c. 100, gave the name of Nabatene to the borderland between Arabia and Syria, from the Euphrates to the Red Sea. Their loosely-controlled trading network, which centered on strings of oases that they controlled, where agriculture was intensively practiced in limited areas, and on the routes that linked them, had no securely defined boundaries in the surrounding desert. Trajan conquered the Nabataean kingdom, annexing it to the Roman Empire, where their individual culture, easily identified by their characteristic finely-potted painted ceramics, became dispersed in the general Greco-Roman culture and was eventually lost.",

"Music":[

{"File":"Sands_of_Time.ogg", "Type":"peace"},

{"File":"Eastern_Dreams.ogg", "Type":"peace"}

],

"Factions":

[

{

"Name":"Nabataeans",

"Description":"The great trading power of Northern Arabia and a rival of civilizations such as Classical Greece, Rome, and Persia, as well as Dynastic Egypt and Imperial Carthage.",

"Technologies":

[

{

"Name":"Unknown.",

"History":"Unknown.",

"Description":"Unknown."

},

{

"Name":"Unknown",

"History":"Unknown.",

"Description":"Unknown."

}

],

"Heroes":

[

{

"Name":"Aretas III",

"Class":"Hero1",

"Armament":"Spear (2m)",

"Emblem":"",

"History":"Aretas III Philhellenos invaded Israel and besieged Jerusalem, forcing the Israelites to beg Pompey in Rome to save them, so he sent the Roman army to expel the Nabataeans from Israel and Moab. Also conquered Damascus."

},

{

"Name":"Obodas I",

"Class":"Hero 2",

"Armament":"Lance (3m)",

"Emblem":"",

"History":"Defeated Alexander Jannaeus in the Golan Heights in 90 AD, securing the Negev for Nabataea. Worshipped as a god by Nabataeans. Town of Avdat (Oboda) named after him."

},

{

"Name":"Aretas I",

"Class":"Hero 3",

"Armament":"",

"Emblem":"",

"History":"First Nabataean King. Held Jason, high priest of Israel, hostage in Nabataea."

}

]

}

],

"CivBonuses":

[

{

"Name":"Nomadic Culture",

"History":"Unknown.",

"Description":"Unknown."

},

{

"Name":"Rose Red City",

"History":"The Nabataean city of Petra was known as the Rose Red City due to its architectural style--its buildings were carved out of the red cliff faces of the Jordanian desert. This technique also made it very difficult to destroy the city.",

"Description":"Nabataean buildings get +25% armor"

}

],

"TeamBonuses":

[

{

"Name":"Crossroads of the World",

"History":"Nabataea was located centrally along the major trade routes from Rome and Greece to China, India, Yemen and Oman (Arabia Felix). The incense trade from South Arabia helped foster economic growth among the Nabataean cities and lead to their economic dominance of the region. They were favorite trading partners of the Ancient World’s superpowers; not only Greece and Rome, but Egypt and even the land of the legendary Queen of Sheba, wanted to trade with the Nabataeans. They attracted the envy of Northern Middle Eastern civilizations, such as Babylon, Assyria, and Persia, and the Babylonian king Nabonidus even went so far leave his throne to his son in order to retire in an early Nabataean city, Tayma. '",

"Description":"Better barter rates at the market for all team members"

}

],

"Structures":

[

{

"Name":"Treasury",

"Class":"Special Building",

"Emblem":"",

"History":"",

"Requirements":"",

"Phase":"City",

"Special":"Can barter and trade. Resource drop site. Also acts like Macedonian Library (researches Special Technologies)"

},

{

"Name":"Royal Tombs",

"Class":"Wonder",

"Emblem":".",

"History":"",

"Requirements":".",

"Phase":"City",

"Special":"."

},

{

"Name":"Bedouin Tent",

"Class":"Temporary",

"Emblem":"",

"History":"Functions as a Civic Centre, but slowly loses health as time goes on. Can only be built by Bedouin units and can only train Bedouin units.",

"Requirements":".",

"Phase":"Town",

"Special":"."

}

],

"StartEntities":

[

{

"Template": "structures/cart_civil_centre"

},

{

"Template": "structures/pers_barracks"

},

{

"Template": "units/pers_support_female_citizen",

"Count": 5

},

{

"Template": "units/cart_infantry_spearman_b",

"Count": 5

},

{

"Template": "units/cart_cavalry_javelinist_b"

}

],

"Formations":

[

"Scatter",

"Box",

"Column Closed",

"Line Closed",

"Column Open",

"Line Open",

"Flank",

"Skirmish",

"Wedge",

"Battle Line",

"Phalanx"

],

"AINames":

[

"Aretas I",

"Obodas I",

"Aretas II",

"Aretas III"

],

"SelectableInGameSetup": true

}

I have to ask, aside from the visual uniqueness, what makes this civ technically different from others? In terms of gameplay, what makes them different?

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The technical differences of the Nabataeans are going to be based on two of their cultural elements--

1) They began as a nomadic culture, so I thought it might be interesting to highlight this through the use of the Bedouin units and their unique building, the Bedouin Tent (which acts as a civic center that slowly loses health and can only be built by bedouin units. It will also cost significantly less and take a lot less time to build, allowing for rapid and spontaneous attacks on the part of Nabataean-Bedouin units)

2) They will definitely have land trade bonuses far superior to those of other civilizations. This will make it easier for the Nabataeans to capitalize on a given map's lack of a certain resource. For example: If you were to play as the Nabataeans on a map, like Atlas Mountains, that does not have much wood, the Nabataean player would have an advantage because he gets better barter rates and merchant rates than his enemy and can collect the scarce resource more quickly and easily.

I know that the Nabataeans were not a great military power, but I feel like 0 A.D. could use at least one economic power to add variety to gameplay.

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I was thinking we could just have the building model include a cliff (It would look weird in biomes other than desert and savannah and maybe mediterranean though).

For a special building you could include a cliff, however you could use the Nabataean cliff architecture as a basis for free-standing structures, like we've used references from Mauryan caves.

As you say, it would be awkward to build a desert cliff on other biomes, so in my opinion the Nabataean structures should be free-standing, like the Great Temple.

http://youtu.be/1ZUpA24kxrY

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Someone was talking about making walls snap to cliffs. If you are doing a mod, maybe that logic could be repurposed for snapping other buildings to cliffs.

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Also, Camels! :D

(I hope?)

Yes there will be camels! How would you make Nabataeans without camels! :)

For a special building you could include a cliff, however you could use the Nabataean cliff architecture as a basis for free-standing structures, like we've used references from Mauryan caves.

As you say, it would be awkward to build a desert cliff on other biomes, so in my opinion the Nabataean structures should be free-standing, like the Great Temple.

http://youtu.be/1ZUpA24kxrY

I saw that about the great temple (I completely agree with you on that and I even think that making smaller buildings, like houses, mills, farmsteads, etc... free-standing would be good) but some buildings would still need to be built into cliffs, just for the sake of artistic diversity. If they are built as free-standing structures, they would look like fancy Greek buildings rather than Nabataean buildings. Also, we know that there were freestanding Mauryan buildings that closely resembled the caves, but Nabataeans actually lived in houses carved into cliffs. Either that or in bedouin tents, but having a bunch of tents be their building set doesn't quite capture the Nabtaean architectural style very well. Is there a way that we could have a differently textured building model for each biome? It would be a bit more work but it might solve the problem!

Edited by Atenmeses52

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Hello guys, I've found some of these Nabataean related pictures from Europa Barbarorum: Novus Ordo Mundi. I hope it would be useful.

thureo.png

Thureophoroi

macha.png

Machairophoroi

loncho.png

Lonchophoroi

khiar.png

Parashîn Khiarîn (Arabian Noble Horsemen)

RomeTW-BI2011-01-1216-51-02-76.jpg

Qestûnarîn (Nabatean Elite Infantry)

RomeTW-BI2011-01-1216-50-08-45.jpg

Khavarîn (Nabatean Elite Cavalry)

These are the pictures from EB II:

arabianinfantrynabatean.png

Muqrabê Lukhâta ["Warriors of the Spear”, North Arabian Spearmen]

arabianinfantryswordand.png

Muqrabîn ["Warriors", North Arabian Shortswordsmen]

arabiancavalrynabataean.png

Parashîn Qeshatîn [Nabataean Horse-Archers]

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1. Bnei Shevet (Infant)

2. Giusim Garzenim (Noble )

3. Beduai (Beduin Warriors)

4. Parashim Meguiasim (Cavalry)

5. Bedues Strategos (General)

6. Beduai

Those names seem a little too Greek and Hebrew. If you see the names of the units posted by The Crooked Philosopher they are significantly more Arabic/Aramaic in origin (the -in ending vs. the -im ending) Nabataean was a language based very much on Aramaic (like Hebrew) but it was significantly closer to Arabic. There was, however, clearly a heavy Greek cultural influence, so I wouldn't mind having a little bit of Greek in things, but I'd stick to at least Semitic languages (like Arabic, Hebrew, or Aramaic) for naming purposes.

I actually already have names in my Design Document. I used ancient Syriac/Aramaic, which is pretty close to Imperial Aramaic, which was a lingua franca of the region during our time period anyway. If anyone speaks Aramaic, or knows Nabataean (maybe even Hijazi or Jordanian Arabic,but I already know Classical (3arabi fus7a) Arabic and Lebanese Arabic), it could be useful though.

Also, @The Crooked Philosopher, Those references are great! Thanks! Do we know if there is a way to legally take their models and use them in our game? I know modders of Civ IV can do this with Empire Earth building models, but I like those models and it might save a lot of work...

Edited by Atenmeses52

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Those names seem a little too Greek and Hebrew. If you see the names of the units posted by The Crooked Philosopher they are significantly more Arabic/Aramaic in origin (the -in ending vs. the -im ending) Nabataean was a language based very much on Aramaic (like Hebrew) but it was significantly closer to Arabic. There was, however, clearly a heavy Greek cultural influence, so I wouldn't mind having a little bit of Greek in things, but I'd stick to at least Semitic languages (like Arabic, Hebrew, or Aramaic) for naming purposes.

I actually already have names in my Design Document. I used ancient Syriac/Aramaic, which is pretty close to Imperial Aramaic, which was a lingua franca of the region during our time period anyway. If anyone speaks Aramaic, or knows Nabataean (maybe even Hijazi or Jordanian Arabic,but I already know Classical (3arabi fus7a) Arabic and Lebanese Arabic), it could be useful though.

Also, @The Crooked Philosopher, Those references are great! Thanks! Do we know if there is a way to legally take their models and use them in our game? I know modders of Civ IV can do this with Empire Earth building models, but I like those models and it might save a lot of work...

i Agree only find what tell you, but all model its hard to put in Official game. Long time ago a suggest DLC content as Alternative civs packs to all have happy with Game.

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GM.jpg

Leader: Queen Gamilath

Take by civilization Fanatics

Civ-specific gameplay:

Walls of Petra wonder in era two can only be built in the capital, but doubles the city's defences as well as the reducing war weariness effect contemporary wonders and improvements for other civs have

Silk road wonder in era two allows the Nabataens unique access to the trade victory, which works like the space race victory, but they have to build ten merchant houses, which all require specific luxury resources, so they need to trade for these with other civs

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The Nabateans uses the simbol of The cornucopia (from Latin cornu copiae) or horn of plenty is a symbol of abundance and nourishment, commonly a large horn-shaped container overflowing with produce, flowers, nuts, other edibles, or wealth in some form. Originating in classical antiquity.

4813.jpg52146p00.jpg

This is a Ptolomiaic Coin:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::AND:::::::::::::::::::::::this a Nabatean Coin

______________________________________

how did knew that?

its simple im working the artwork of Ptolomies and a some contribution for Nabatean Tread

Edited by Lion.Kanzen

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I like that a lot Lion.Kanzen, but I think having more traditional symbols, like an 8-pointed star or the others found here (although there was heavy borrowing going on from the Egyptians and Persians) might better suit them. alh_11.jpg

maybe we could combine the cornucopia with a round symbol, like the 8-pointed star or crescent moon and sun-disk (to the left of the star and below the winged disk and Egyptian-esque eye)

Also, a note on Queen Gamilath-- I looked into having her as a hero, but I didn't see all that much in her that there wasn't in other kings. We might replace Aretas I with her though, seeing as he is the least important of our three heroes (Aretas III, Obodas I, and Aretas I)

Tambien, gracias por todo su ayuda con este mod!

Edited by Atenmeses52

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I like that a lot Lion.Kanzen, but I think having more traditional symbols, like an 8-pointed star or the others found here (although there was heavy borrowing going on from the Egyptians and Persians) might better suit them. alh_11.jpg

maybe we could combine the cornucopia with a round symbol, like the 8-pointed star or crescent moon and sun-disk (to the left of the star and below the winged disk and Egyptian-esque eye)

Also, a note on Queen Gamilah-- I looked into having her as a hero, but I didn't see all that much in her that there wasn't in other kings. We might replace Aretas I with her though, seeing as he is the least important of our three heroes (Aretas III, Obodas I, and Aretas I)

Tambien, gracias por todo su ayuda con este mod!

we need the symbol be clear to reproduce.

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Nabataean reliefs are hard to come by, so I found some other (mostly Canaanite) near-eastern equivalents

ur-stele-sm.jpgbaal_hadad.jpgInanna-Venus-Hokuloa%20Summerian.jpg

Also, the style of patterning on this type of hat (kefiyyeh) is very traditional:

4330285328_64a13bb469.jpg

Edited by Atenmeses52

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Help me and help you. that Symbol a give befoe i was Called "Nabatae Hellenon" for Hellenistic Influence.

but now you want a "crescent disk." i find its, you say its similar to egyptian.

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Help me and help you. that Symbol a give befoe i was Called "Nabatae Hellenon" for Hellenistic Influence.

but now you want a "crescent disk." i find its, you say its similar to egyptian.

okay... I still like the symbol you made We could use it, it's just that there is a bit of open space in the bottom of it and I thought it might be nice to fill it with another symbol. The crescent disk thing I mentioned before is the second picture that I posted. It is like a normal circle, just with a crescent inscribed on the bottom. I honestly don't care which other symbol you pick to use-- any of the three that I posted should be fine-- I just thought it might add a bit more extravagance to the symbol you designed!

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