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Mythos_Ruler    498

Take a look here and you'll see I've committed a couple of special techs and civ bonuses:

http://trac.wildfire...changeset/12748

Basically, many of the civ bonuses can be done with technologies. And there are many more technology effects being added all the time:

http://trac.wildfire...chModifications

Eventually, a real tech tree will be designed, and then using the civ profiles (e.g. the Athenians) each faction will pick and choose from the standard tech tree, especially regarding economic techs. The major difference between the technology trees and how they're designed between the factions can be the way they upgrade their military. So, while the economic side of the tech tree would be fairly standardized, with some factions just getting more than others, the military side could be customized per culture.

Non-Military Technologies Outline

Civic Centre

Settlement Phase x3

Structure Health/Structure Build Rate x2

Structure Cost/Structure Armor x2

Structure Repair Rate/Structure Loyalty Regen Rate x1

Population Cap Bonus Houses/Population Cap Bonus Civic Centres x1


Mill

Wood Rate/Wood Capacity x3

Stone Rate/Stone Capacity x3

Metal Rate/Metal Capacity x3


Farmstead

Farming Rate/Farming Capacity x3

Forage Rate/Forage Capacity x1

Hunting Rate/Hunting One-Shot Kill x1


Corral

Animal Breed Rate/Animal Food Amount x1

Domestic Animal Trickle Rate/? x1


Dock

All Ships Speed/All Ships Acceleration x2

All Ships Armour/All Ships Cost x2

Fishing Rate/Fish Boat Capacity x1

Trade Ship Health/Trade Ship Build Time x1

Trade Ship Profit/Trade Ship Garrison Capacity x1


Market

Barter Ratio/Reduced Tribute Fees x2

Trader Speed/Trader Vision x1

{Unlock} Allied Shared Vision


House

Female Aura Radius/Female Aura Effect x1

Female Train Time/Female Health x1

{Unlock} Train Females From Houses


Temple

Temple Garrison Healing Rate/Temple Garrison Capacity x2

Healer Healing Rate/Healer Healing Range x2

{Unlock} Garrison Healing for All Buildings


Barracks

{Unlock} Batch Training for Organic Units (soldiers, females, etc.)


Fortress

{Unlock} Batch Training for Mechanical Units (ships and siege)


Walls

Walls Health/Walls Build Rate x3

Military Technologies Outline

  • Hellenic factions (Athenians, Macedonians, Spartans): Their upgrades are on a per unit-type basis. For instance, you upgrade your spearmen separately from your skirmishers from your cavalry spearmen, and so forth.

  • Celtic factions (Britons, Gauls) and Iberians: They upgrade per weapon type. Sword, spear, javelin, etc. I could even see splitting their barracks into a Barracks (at reduced cost) for training and a Blacksmith building for upgrading.

  • Carthaginians: They could upgrade their troops by ethnicity. North Africans, Gauls, Iberians, Italians. So, their Barracks would have upgrades that affect all North African units, and their individual Embassy structures would have upgrades that affect their respective ethnicities.

  • Persians: They upgrade based on whether the units are Infantry or Cavalry. Most infantry upgrades would focus on the Health/Train Time dichotomy. Cavalry would focus on Armour/Cost and Attack/Cost.

  • Mauryans: I haven't figured them out yet, but perhaps we could focus on their "4-armed" military philosophy (Infantry, Cavalry, Chariots, Elephants) in some way.

  • Romans: Now, these guys are a little different. Bear with me. What they could do is have 1 tech pair per phase, we'd call "Reforms", and each tech would have multiple effects. So, the player chooses between batches of effects ("Reforms").

Conclusion

So, the economic side of the coin would be fairly standardized, allowing new players to learn the economic tech tree easily. The military side of the coin is where real faction differences can come into play.

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To be honest, Michael, I see this is a clear attempt to add more identity to each faction, but i don't believe it will be viable, balance-wise. But since this is a development, new experiences are part of the whole effort to evolve the game, and i'm looking forward to test this aspect.

Edited by Pedro Falcão

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Mythos_Ruler    498

To be honest, Michael, I see this is a clear attempt to add more identity to each faction, but i don't believe it will be viable, balance-wise. But since this is a development, new experiences are part of the whole effort to evolve the game, and i'm looking forward to test this aspect.

The way I look at balancing techs is rather simple. In the end, you add up all the costs, research times, and stat effects for each, then compare them, then balance them from there. Also, it is not my opinion that every civ must be perfectly balanced. Only that it is possible to win with each civ.

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ribez    9

The way I look at balancing techs is rather simple. In the end, you add up all the costs, research times, and stat effects for each, then compare them, then balance them from there. Also, it is not my opinion that every civ must be perfectly balanced. Only that it is possible to win with each civ.

i agree with you. So every player must discover the civ that more fits his gameplay style. A civ should focus on defense, another on attack, another on economy, another on building skills and so on :)

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Mythos_Ruler    498

Purposes can be found for every building, the problem is if it worth introcing them.

Well, I was asking why he wanted this particular building. :) We can, of course, include it as an Easter Egg building. Just wondering if he had a purpose for it in a skirmish.

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Well, I was asking why he wanted this particular building. :) We can, of course, include it as an Easter Egg building. Just wondering if he had a purpose for it in a skirmish.

My bad, i meant to ask if there is the need for any new building at all. And, by the way, when is a new building needed?

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How about this for the Celts, instead of researching techs all the techs from the blacksmith, why not instead use one blacksmith for a single tech or weapon (whose effects could be improved) and have those effects last only as long as the blacksmith lasts? Any units trained before the blacksmith was destroyed would still have the effects, but not those trained after it is destroyed.

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Sighvatr    102

I think it would be cool to research unit formations.

Infantry formations should be the most powerful tactic in unit warfare. Some Infantry formations like the Tetsudo, should enable all projectiles ineffective against the infantry. Archer formations would allow archers to shoot faster, or timed, or allow better sight of targets. Cavalry formations should allow greater speed.

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How about this for the Celts, instead of researching techs all the techs from the blacksmith, why not instead use one blacksmith for a single tech or weapon (whose effects could be improved) and have those effects last only as long as the blacksmith lasts? Any units trained before the blacksmith was destroyed would still have the effects, but not those trained after it is destroyed.

Or make the blacksmiths reduce the training time for a specific kind of soldier (as if producing that kind of weapon continuously). Then, to change the kind of weapon the blacksmithers works on, you must take some time to prepare the new tools.

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oshron    95

Take a look here and you'll see I've committed a couple of special techs and civ bonuses:

http://trac.wildfire...changeset/12748

Basically, many of the civ bonuses can be done with technologies. And there are many more technology effects being added all the time:

http://trac.wildfire...chModifications

Eventually, a real tech tree will be designed, and then using the civ profiles (e.g. the Athenians) each faction will pick and choose from the standard tech tree, especially regarding economic techs. The major difference between the technology trees and how they're designed between the factions can be the way they upgrade their military. So, while the economic side of the tech tree would be fairly standardized, with some factions just getting more than others, the military side could be customized per culture. Here's how I see they could go:

  • Hellenic factions (Athenians, Macedonians, Spartans): Their upgrades are on a per unit-type basis. For instance, you upgrade your spearmen separately from your skirmishers from your cavalry spearmen, and so forth.

  • Celtic factions (Britons, Gauls) and Iberians: They upgrade per weapon type. Sword, spear, javelin, etc. I could even see splitting their barracks into a Barracks for training and a Blacksmith building for upgrading.

  • Carthaginians: They could upgrade their troops by ethnicity. North Africans, Gauls, Iberians, Italians. So, their Barracks would have upgrades that affect all North African units, and their individual embassy structures would have upgrades that affect their respective ethnicities.

  • Persians: They upgrade based on whether the units are Infantry or Cavalry. Most infantry upgrades would focus on the Health/Train Time dichotomy. Cavalry would focus on Armour/Cost and Attack/Cost.

  • Mauryans: I haven't figured them out yet, but perhaps we could focus on their "4-armed" military philosophy (Infantry, Cavalry, Chariots, Elephants) in some way.

  • Romans: Now, these guys are a little different. Bear with me. What they could do is have 1 tech pair per phase, we'd call "Reforms", and each tech would have multiple effects. So, the player chooses between batches of effects ("Reforms").

So, the economic side of the coin would be fairly standardized, allowing new players to learn the economic tech tree easily. The military side of the coin is where real faction differences can come into play.

certainly sounds like a good way to make each civ more unique to me. on that matter, though, i believe you once mentioned that it was planned for there to be a provision that researching one tech forbade you from researching another, forcing your civ to follow a certain focus? will this apply to the unit-related technologies?

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feneur    1,430

certainly sounds like a good way to make each civ more unique to me. on that matter, though, i believe you once mentioned that it was planned for there to be a provision that researching one tech forbade you from researching another, forcing your civ to follow a certain focus? will this apply to the unit-related technologies?

It certainly can at least :) The above are just different ways to divide and select the units, the technologies themselves can still work the same way :)

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Mythos_Ruler    498

A branching system for techs would be pretty complicated and would take many more hours to design than what we have available, I'm afraid. To make it work, I think we'd have to abandon the whole idea of researching techs at buildings and go with a separate "Technology Screen" where you can see the entire tree.

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oshron    95

alternatively, the tech screen could scroll up-down or sideways (one or the other) to show everything. personally, i'd recommend up-down scrolling. also, each unit/building/tech should probably have a (relatively) unique sprite depending. for example, perhaps instead of having a relatively complex unit portrait, the different unit classes could have their weapon as their symbol with a background resembling a horse or hoofprint to indicate cavalry units, with specifics coming up when the player hovers the cursor over each portrait

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Phaedros    3

@Mythos: A indie game that came out recently called Tryst managed to do a Research Screen fairly well (though it wasn't branching it was more unit based) and worked of a tier system unlocked via Tier building upgrade, perhaps something to experiment with (sometime later when you have spare time) is perhaps Age based and maybe require prerequisite buildings? O.o

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Sighvatr    102

I got an idea. A Technology that allows you to pay in food and wood instead of stone and metal for City Phase. Another stupid piece of technology that allows you to train professional troops from Barracks. LOS (Line of Sight) would be a nice bit of technology to research too.

A technology with an example name "Innovation" would enable you to be able to train units from an enemy civilization. Or allow you to train units from an allied civilization. Or maybe if a player is defeated, and you have innovation researched, you may be able to train units that once belonged to that previous civilization.

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dvangennip    50

A technology with an example name "Innovation" would enable you to be able to train units from an enemy civilization. Or allow you to train units from an allied civilization. Or maybe if a player is defeated, and you have innovation researched, you may be able to train units that once belonged to that previous civilization.

The problem with using such technologies is that it would water down the unique characteristics of each civilisation, because it becomes very easy to train units of another civ. Perhaps donating units to an ally could work, but I would not go as far as always having the option to train those yourself.

However, some scenario map where there is an embassy that can be captured by players for such purposes could be fun.

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Sighvatr    102

I'd say we shouldn't think too hard about techs yet, they'll need some reforms when we are balancing the units, so it's a waste of time, yet. Michael's tree should suffice for now.

Why is it a waste of time? Even if something is temporary, it still makes an impact and makes the game more fun than without technology. If somebody steps up to implement more technology into 0 AD, it will most likely end up in the next version of the game.

I'm just throwing out ideas.

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oshron    95

I'd say we shouldn't think too hard about techs yet, they'll need some reforms when we are balancing the units, so it's a waste of time, yet. Michael's tree should suffice for now.

i wouldnt say its a waste; those of us who aren't actually making the game (such as me) coming up with ideas now can help save time later, if we work ou the techs beforehand. maybe we could make a thread to compile tech ideas and what they would do

speaking of which, i would say that the types of technologies to work out presently would be "common" technologies that most or all the civilizations would have, sorta like most techs that were, indeed, available to nearly every civ in AOK for instance

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FeXoR    376

Some Technology ideas:

- Increase Buildings Sight Radius (in Civil Centre or Outpost)

- Decrease Cost of Walls (Civil Centre, Walls or Mill)

- Increase Archers Range (Barracks)

- Increase Infantry Hitpoints (Barracks)

BTW: I think Foraging/Hunting upgrades should be available in Settlement Phase (don't know how it's planned).

I would like to have about one unit per building not buildable when a structure gets available but one Phase later.

Edited by FeXoR

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