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bohhy

Capturing

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Try with the roman sandbox, there's an army camp just outside the territory which is decaying, if it's below 100% capture points you can't garrison there.

I tried it, and it works. Though it's indeed decaying fast. You're sure it didn't hit 0 and turned to gaia at some point?

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The sound alert must be different, in AoE when a priest are trying to convert a unit or building the sound is different from the main attack.

I know in this moment we lack about soun designer for have something appropriate.

Edit1

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I don't like the idea to use attack move in buildings because is the same shortcut to garrison in to a ally building, I mean if you are losing the building to recover the CP ( capture points) you need garrison into your own building ( obviusly if the building have the garrison option enable).

The other matter is use mouse cursor

Like this 1UlxpSF.png

I like this, is like a hand taking

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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I found new issues

1dVRaaL.png

  • the units don't focus in attacking the selected building

___________

  • the bar need it own tool tip
Edited by Lion.Kanzen

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Hello

I've played a couple of full games against the AI, I find capturing very interesting. It was a bit misleading at start not to think about swordmen and slingers to take down early buildings but anyone can be usefull now. To "destroy" a building, you need to capture it and destroy it "from the inside", or use siege.

It takes building settlements to an other level, because once it is build, it's likely to be there for a long time either for you or your ennemies.

Abandonned or underdefended settlement can be easily captured (even towers turning against their owner!), while garisson still make strongholds requiring siege weapons. I haven't checked that but walls seems to be more valuable to prevent invasion and tower capture.

I thought in the first place to make defensive buildings not capturable but it work well that way. If defended (garrissoned) it won't be capturable unless really overwhelmed. I like the way you have to be there to prevent your settlement to be used against you.

That's all for now. I need to play more (and online) to try more things.

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Actually, while we're talking about "destroying from the inside" - someone considered that people with more than a few brain cells actually will delete their buildings instead of letting them being captured? Just saying.

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...those cells won't help, since you cannot destroy your building anymore after capturing started.

Fair enough then. But what if you destroy your building yourself before they start capturing?

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Fair enough then. But what if you destroy your building yourself before they start capturing?

yes you can but territory influence (your own) can bring back the building unless the following reasons.

If is in a frontier between enemy and your ( shared)

If have enemy troops inside ( garrison)

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@Karamel, you can attack buildings by using the attack hotkey (which is rather inconveniently set to the default CTRL+ALT+Right_Click).

@zippy: not when the attack starts, but when the attacker is halfway. In regular attacks, first the attacker will gain momentum, as it takes a while for the defender to see what the attacker is doing, and go defending the right building. But as the attack goes on, attacking units get killed by the fire from the building they attack, or by defending units. While defending units stay rather safe in their buildings. So it's perfectly possible (and even likely) that the attacker first brings the amount of capture points to about halfway, and still isn't able to capture the building. As such, deleting your own building, when you still have a pretty big chance to keep it, would be a shame.

Of course, that being "halfway" is just an estimation of where the odds turn. If playtesting reveals other estimations, we don't have to stick with the halfway boundary.

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@Karamel, you can attack buildings by using the attack hotkey (which is rather inconveniently set to the default CTRL+ALT+Right_Click).

@zippy: not when the attack starts, but when the attacker is halfway. In regular attacks, first the attacker will gain momentum, as it takes a while for the defender to see what the attacker is doing, and go defending the right building. But as the attack goes on, attacking units get killed by the fire from the building they attack, or by defending units. While defending units stay rather safe in their buildings. So it's perfectly possible (and even likely) that the attacker first brings the amount of capture points to about halfway, and still isn't able to capture the building. As such, deleting your own building, when you still have a pretty big chance to keep it, would be a shame.

Of course, that being "halfway" is just an estimation of where the odds turn. If playtesting reveals other estimations, we don't have to stick with the halfway boundary.

Okay.. well, good. Did you consider the building type/size to influence the capturing process? I.e. a Town Center needs to take longer to capture than a regular house. Same with military buildings - fortresses shouldn't be captureable at all.

Also, cavalry/fast units/ranged should capture slower than regular infantry - else you're promoting gameplay in which the players just train some knights and play "catch the mouse" around the map capping structures. Even if that would give permanent action, I think it should have drawbacks compared to having "regular" armies - especially considering that you're planning charge/trample damage on cavalry units, which makes those units pretty powerful.

Edited by DarcReaver

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@DarkReaver: Strong buildings are indeed stronger. Small buildings (houses, dropsites) have currently 300 cp, regular buildings have 1000 cp, and the fortress and CC have something like 3000 or 4000 cp. So capturing a small building is easy, but not of big use either.

There's no difference between units yet. As I'd first like to see what these initial stats do. Currently, all units take 3 cp/second.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone: Well, we wanted some physical animation, as the cheer animations didn't look too good for this purpose IMO. I was actually looking for some ramming animation with a club or a piece of wood. But I couldn't find anything that suited. Hence the fork.

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I don't really like capturing as a classic RTS mechanic, it feels to me more weird and messy than soldiers just attacking structures when you have to control basebuilding, combat and a rather detailed economy at the same time. That said it might turn out good in it's final form. Certainly though more expensive units (considering overall mass-ability through resource/time costs and how many structures can produce the unit - fortress only units could be considered slightly more expensive for example) should have more capture points/second else massing weak units will be a huge advantage. In addition to that, Swordsmen and especially champion ones can be extra bonused here as assault infantry, while units like Pikemen are more effective in open field battles.

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Capture need be switchable its uncomfortable use ALT+ CTRL to destroy buildings, example I wants use some units to capture and another to destroy, cavalry for example must have more attack bonus than capturing

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Capture need be switchable its uncomfortable use ALT+ CTRL to destroy buildings, example I wants use some units to capture and another to destroy, cavalry for example must have more attack bonus than capturing

Easiest way to do that would be 2 stances for that. One is used for capturing, the other for attacking. Could be combined with the capture-kill system proposed in the "should women be convertable?" thread. Edited by DarcReaver
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@wowgetoffyourcellphone: Well, we wanted some physical animation, as the cheer animations didn't look too good for this purpose IMO. I was actually looking for some ramming animation with a club or a piece of wood. But I couldn't find anything that suited. Hence the fork.

I don't think bashing building with a club or fork is different enough visual from other attacks. The cheers are much different than attacks so help player see what is happening better.

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Fair enough then. But what if you destroy your building yourself before they start capturing?

Probably voluntary destruction of a building should take some time.

Also, cavalry/fast units/ranged should capture slower than regular infantry

Ranged inf units normally have less armor and arent optimal choice for capturing since they die easier from buildings which have arrow attack. For buildings left unprotected, imo, a unit type shouldnt make much difference.

That said, presentation of capture ability in form of Capture Attack parameter seems quite artificial to me. Unlike other parameters in the game, it hasn't a clear real world 'prototype'. Maybe it would be better to calculate it from attack parameters. (Cause, doesn't a capture ability mostly depend on a level of threat a unit can pose?)

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That said, presentation of capture ability in form of Capture Attack parameter seems quite artificial to me. Unlike other parameters in the game, it hasn't a clear real world 'prototype'.

I would agree. What about "Bully"? (same verbe tense as Pierce, Crush, Hack)

Maybe it would be better to calculate it from attack parameters. (Cause, doesn't a capture ability mostly depend on a level of threat a unit can pose?)

I don't think so. Some units could be good at 'intimidating', especially when it comes to houses and civil buildings, without having a large strike power (and that would add more variety of course)

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Note that "Capture Attack" is not an alternative to Hack, Pierce or Crush, but it's an alternative to "Ranged Attack", "Melee Attack", "Slaughter Attack" and "Charge Attack".

However, the stats of the Capture Attack are more simple than the stats of other attacks, because I didn't need those differentiating stats AFAICS, and simple stats make balancing simple.

For me, the objective of the Capture Attack was that units wouldn't do their normal attack actions against buildings. They won't shoot arrows at a building, and they won't hack it with a sword. So their regular attack stats don't count. Units never try to demolish a building, but they try tot make it theirs. That's why my original patch had the regular attack of units against buildings disabled. The capture attack is a complete replacement of the regular attack, so it must look like an attack, and the player must use the same commands.

As for how to display it. There was the option to let units go inside the building (like garrisoning), and reduce Capture points that way. But this would make capturing a bit dull. Units inside buildings can't be attacked from outside anymore. If the attack capacity is limited (like the garrison capacity is), then either the defender or the attacker can always win.

With the current case, of keeping units outside, the defender and the attacker have to react to each others choices. As it's a complete replacement attack against, I looked for attacks that were like physically attacking the structure. Using ladders, a piece of wood to ram a door, ... But due to lack of existing animations and suited props, some pitchfork animation was the closest I could find.

But it starts to look like I'm the only one with this idea.

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But it starts to look like I'm the only one with this idea.

No, I really think it's a good implementation of the system. Sorry for my misunderstanding of the "Capture Attack" thing btw.

I think the real problem is that not all units have a capture animation right now, which looks weird :( But using the cheering animation doesn't sound good at all, because it would just look like some mystic conversion, which doesn't make sense for buildings.

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As for how to display it. There was the option to let units go inside the building (like garrisoning), and reduce Capture points that way. But this would make capturing a bit dull. Units inside buildings can't be attacked from outside anymore. If the attack capacity is limited (like the garrison capacity is), then either the defender or the attacker can always win.

With the current case, of keeping units outside, the defender and the attacker have to react to each others choices. As it's a complete replacement attack against, I looked for attacks that were like physically attacking the structure. Using ladders, a piece of wood to ram a door, ... But due to lack of existing animations and suited props, some pitchfork animation was the closest I could find.

But it starts to look like I'm the only one with this idea.

Oke what do you think about this, Units need to enter the building to capture but first they need to RAM the door "Damage shown with small health bar" then when the door is destroyed by the attackers they can enter to begin capturing but when the building has a garrison they need to fight inside with the progress of the fight is shown by "A swords icon and a progress bar" And the buildings have a cap limit based on the size of the structure for both sides. So lets say it its a fort and has a 10/10 cap and both players have 10 units fighting then the winner is the one with the best units based on class/rank/experience or something.

And when the fighting bar is shown NO teams can't send more units inside until one side has won. The defender got a advance over the attacker because they first need to break the door before they are able to start capturing. And when the attacker lost the fight the defender got to repair the door when not done in time the other player can try again with fresh troops in the hope the other player did not replenisch his garrison. But when the fight is won by the attacker he starts capturing and the capture rate is based on the amount of units inside but won't take age,s because the fight is already won so sould be yours not right away but 15/20 sec later with few units and a full house 5 sec.

And for effects, You need a animation for units to represent battering a door Some UI icons and stuff and maybe some battlesounds are played when units are fighting inside buildings.

Not all units sould be able to enter/capture like cav or other classes then infantry because then it give,s different units different purposes.

I think that would be a nice system and more realistic then units praying or slashing to a building...

Edited by RoekeloosNL

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I think the real problem is that not all units have a capture animation right now, which looks weird :(But using the cheering animation doesn't sound good at all, because it would just look like some mystic conversion, which doesn't make sense for buildings.

Have you even tried it? I have and it look much better than poke with fork. We are talking bout game that have priests waving arms around to heal soldiers. Having soldiers cheer around the capture building is not really out of place.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone

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