StopKillingMe

I hope some developers are paying attention to this thread - there is no way this mod should be rolled up into Alpha - it completely changes the game that we are all playing right now, Borg has reworked the entire game, all the historical research is out the window, the original concept of the game is out the window...he has basically changed everything...

You're the guy trying to tell me I'm not playing this game, so anything else you say at this point is moot. I know what I am doing, and your attempt to tell me that what I am doing isn't valid pretty much sums you up. I'm gonna keep playing 0ad in the game lobby and stay away from this toxic place, it's clear that all you guys want to do here is start flame wars. The level of ego here is truly astonishing. Everything becomes a juvenile slinging match. It's an embarrassment. I honestly have no idea what some of you are on about - I installed the current version, and have been having fun playing the game in the Game Lobby - there isn't anything glaringly wrong with the game, Celts need to be nerfed a little bit, but that's it. Installing a mod means you can't get an MP game - so for obvious reasons I'm not gonna do that. Nerfing the Celts would be easy, but what I see here is a bunch of people with massive ego issues and their own agendas around what they think the game should become, too selfish and stubborn to just deal with what we have. Delusions of grandeur...looks to me like a good many of you just don't understand what open source means. What I find extremely ironic is that I see borg playing vanilla all the time, and it is undeniable that in the Game Lobby is where the action is for 0ad - so all these dissertations on what is wrong with the game and how some mod needs to become the defacto standard and blah blah blah are just pie in the sky ideals with no actual substance behind them. The whole thing is just laughable to me, I'm just gonna start hosting Rated Death Matches in the Game Lobby and leave this bizarre ego chamber for good...SMH.

Goodbye trolls.

Umm no, not everyone is doing that. I have a recorded game of borg's startup and he is definitely not doing that.

Your constant attempt at belittling me are not going to work. All it does is reveal who incredibly immature you are as an individual.

You just aren't getting it. This is why we can't have your mod rolled up into vanilla. Allowing women to build all structures will have a massive impact on how the game plays and the Meta of the starting build order. Once again, there will be no need to train men from the CC, the Meta will change to women getting a rax up as soon as possible, with the four starting men staying on wood for the collection bonus.

Don't make me laugh, 20 cav at minute 5 would be a massive sacrifice of economy.

Yes it does make sense. Right now women citizens cannot initiate a build of a barracks or towers or walls. Allowing them to do this would completely changes the Meta of the game. Women train faster than men, so why would I train men from the CC when I can just use a woman to build a barracks, train men there and keep making women in the CC? If women can build towers, walls, and rax, what need is there to create men from the CC? None.

I don't know why you find that weird. That "Age of" franchise exists, no need to copy it.

Giving women the ability to initiate the build of barracks and towers would change the Meta of the game. Due to the faster speed of training women, there would be no need to train men from the CC anymore, once women get a rax or two up, that's where everyone would train men. This is the point I'm trying to make, by just randomly changing things, and not just small things but all kinds of things, you're creating a new version of 0ad. If your mod got implemented into vanilla tomorrow, every player would have to completely change how we play the game. That's 2.0 software. It makes little sense to do that to Alpha code, much less Beta code.

Sorry to break it to you yet again - but we are playing rated games against each other daily. No amount of spin is going to change this reality.

I disagree with the concept of rolling up a mod into vanilla, not just the borg mod, but any mod. I believe that the design document should be followed as closely as possible, at least until there is a Beta release. There is no reason to try to rework everything at this stage of the development of 0ad, other than some peoples personal desires. Personal desires should not drive development at this stage, the original vision of the game that has been so carefully documented should. Deciding that women should suddenly get to start building barracks is out of scope, you can try to use the word hostility to describe the reality of me pointing that out all you want, it still won't change the fact that this is a change that should be in a mod only, and most certainly not in Alpha or Beta 0ad. That has nothing to do with hostility whatsoever.

Directly from the Design Document: Accurate History - All our content is validated by our History Department to ensure that it is true to source wherever possible (unless it negatively affects gameplay). Citizen Soldiers - There will be no standard villager unit. Instead, regular infantry and cavalry have not only military capabilities, but also economic, making them substantially more versatile than in typical RTS games. Therefore, the implementation of a new "counter system" and allowing women to build military buildings - both of these out completely out of scope. This is not just a "mod" - it's an entirely different game. This mod should never become a part of vanilla 0ad. Only the things that "negatively affect gameplay" should be changed, all else needs to be preserved.

I get that you want the game completely reworked...you are just going to have to accept that some people don't agree with that approach.

I knew this attack would be coming from you. It's very predictable. Once again, the Celts need nerfing in vanilla, that's the topic of this thread, if you know best on how to do that, then state that. I'm 54 years old, so nice try. Your flame-bait isn't going to work. 1. Vanilla should not include code from mods. 2. Celts need to be nerfed.

I'm just going to restate my opinion: 1. Mods should not become part of vanilla - they are a separate thing. What we have now should be preserved and incrementally improved. 2. A process for patching for balance needs to be established, independent of any other objective, focused 100% on improving competitive MP. It should not depend on any other need, like adding units, changing what buildings can train what, or anything else like that - it should be solely focused on improving what is currently being played. 3. Balance changes need to be clearly communicated to the player community, what is changed, why it is changed, and what the desired outcome is. 4. There is really only one effective proving ground for game balance, ladder play in the Game Lobby. Patch 1.01 should be solely dedicated to solely nerfing the Celts, and nothing else. Ladder play once this patch is implemented will reveal what needs to be done in 1.02, probably in as little time as a few weeks. Welcome to ignore.

I'm not playing your mod - the people I play on the ladder are not playing your mod. I'm not going to install your mod and then not be able to get a game, I don't understand why this concept is so controversial, I don't understand why every road has to lead to your mod - this is an open source game, improving gameplay with something quick and dirty is better than nothing, and will be far better than getting into the quagmire discussion about your specific mod, especially since there are other mods besides yours. Your massively changing the core game. You just expect everyone to accept your one man show as the new game? You want to rework the entire game and its not even in beta yet - I'm suggesting we just need to dial back the Celts a bit, and keep playing what we have. Huge difference. So respectfully - why do I have to wholesale accept the massive changes you have made in your mod, bearing in mind if I install it, I can't even play it on the ladder, right?

And yet again, someone now wants to talk mods, and not vanilla gameplay. Right now as I write this there are 23 games being played in the game lobby. Good/Bad/or Indifferent - this is where the game is being played - in the Game Lobby of A23. This is the code base that needs to be patched...it's where the players are. I don't understand why so many of you want to move every single vanilla discussion into yet another debate about mods.

No - you are the *clearly* one who doesn't get it. We *are* playing this game - and competitively. It's quite obvious you are not a competitive player if you think that training military units for a rush from the CC is an effective strategy. It isn't. Good players boom women and techs first, then build two or three rax, then attack or defend. If you start by training military units from the CC, you will lose. Trying to tell me that this is a tech demo and nothing more is ridiculously absurd. There is a game play lobby and it's easy to get a 1v1 rated game pretty much most of the day. So you don't know what you are talking about. I don't care how much whining some of you do - Celts and specifically Britons need a nerf. Slingers need a nerf. The people that are actually playing this game day to day know this - the people that are denying this or making excuses are either not playing, or are more interested in their mod than vanilla. The Meta as established by top player Borg is to batch train women and tech up, then get up one or two defensive towers at your woodline, build 2 or 3 rax, and then from there different strategies can branch out. If you don't play Borg's established Meta and you come up against someone that does, you will lose badly. Britons are ridiculous - you get an extra scout, building the starting farmstead and storage pit increases your pop and delays the need to build the opening house, and you can go all in on a Slinger rush in Age 1 and it has devastating effect. There is no Meta that has any kind of rush from military units from the CC - the fact that you think that is an issue is a clear indication that you are not playing on the ladder. Once again, the Celts (Britons) need a nerf, and if that makes a new civ suddenly OP, that would be a very welcome change. You give Borg Britons and he could easily take on 3 or 4 human 1300 level players and win. You wanna win on the ladder? Get a hold of a Borg recorded game, copy his startup build order, play Britons, spam Age 1 Slingers, attack, and keep attacking. If you are doing this effectively, the fact that your opponent is in Age 2 doesn't matter. There is no effective counter for massed slingers, they can destroy towers, houses, farms - you're toast. These are cold hard *facts*, that are coming from experience. And that is what makes an RTS good or not good, how it plays on the ladder. DOtMW had Korean rush problem, AOM had the Poseidon cav rush problem, and both of them were fixed easily. This is not a difficult problem. It is easily fixed, as will the next OP civ that emerges will be just as easy to fix.

Oh the irony, your signature is an announcement that you and others have decided to fork the code. I rest my case.

This post is a perfect example of why I won't be participating here anymore. Everyone knows what the issue is, the Celts need to be nerfed. In vanilla. But every thread now turns into how the most important thing is the borg mod. I and others are not playing the mods, we are playing vanilla, so the solution is obvious. But for some reason any attempt at actually addressing the issue is met with "how dare you speak to us this way", "you're not being respectful enough", etc. I've got better things to do with my time then to try to coddle the egos of a bunch of people that clearly just need to grow up and get over themselves.

Well congrats, I will no longer be participating on this forum anymore.

You are a troll.

Yep. I knew it. I know very clearly what the problem is now.