https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/104332-naval-overhaul-alpha-27/

In my opinion, it is a great idea to provide the opportunity to capture an enemy ship.

My development of this idea is very simple:
Let's make it possible for one ship to be captured or seizured (intercepted, converted e.t.c) by another player's ship with a garrison.

For example: one ship that has no garrison (or fewer units) and another ship with a garrison (or two/three times more than the first) move very close to each other for a while, after which the ship becomes the possession of the player with a more powerful garrison. Much like taking over buildings.

After capture, the first ship will receive part of the second ship's garrison.

To do this, you don’t need to make animation, just add mechanics.
Of course, it would be better to take into account the forces of the units located in the garrison, but only if it looked like hand-to-hand combat (without representing the battle itself, only capturing the line, as for buildings).

And ships without a garrison could not be used for capture. Only for fights. Thus, the player can add units to the ship's garrison and go to capture another fleet.

This will add dynamics and unpredictability to naval battles.

Design Input is needed on above-mentioned Issue over there at Gitea. A patch from 13 years ago exists, but rebasing might be complicated. @Itms set the Milestone to Release 29, so maybe some folks are ready for some task force work.

@ShadowOfHassen, @Atrik

and a separate icon for hunting,

but the icon for hunting is used for the supply the hunting icon is used instead of the farming icon. 
Could we change the default icon for food supply to the one used for farming ?


It's a small change but one that would make vegan gamers feel more comfortable.

I don't know who to tag for this but I'll tag @Stan`since we're making friends .

Some data points I found interesting:

• Naked Fanatics have, despite the big complain thread about them, not overly impressive combat stats
• The P2 Champion Infantry Swordsmen of Athenians and Carthaginians have insane stats cost-for-cost, and have the additional bonus to be fast
• Maidan Guard have really bad stats if you compare them to other fast infantry; they can only keep up thanks to the 20% damage bonus from Steel Working
• Elephant Archers are cost-for-cost about twice as tanky as other archers and still deal about the same damage

0AD_Unit_Calculations_028_01.ods

0AD_Unit_Calculations_028_02.ods

PART I

Simple things that should be:

-In the civ description, "fell in 330 BC" should be "fell in 338 BC": a mistake regarding the Battle of Chaeronea.

-Athenian Long Walls should be Makra Teichē (Long Walls): how they were called, and no need to add "Athenian".

-Arsenal of Philon should be Philōnos Skeuothēkē (Arsenal of Philon), and have a different icon: to follow proper nomenclature, and instead of a flipped Arsenal icon with blue background, the actual remarkable building could be shown.

-Ploion Phortegikon (Merchantman) should be Holkas (Merchantman), and Ploion Halieutikon (Fishing Boat) should be Epaktron (Fishing Boat): the present name comes from someone posting "I don't know what the correct word is, though. Perhaps ploion phortegikon?". His source is fine for the fishing boat, but I came across these terms in Casson's glossary.

-Ostracism should be Ostrakismos (Ostracism), and have a different icon: to follow proper nomenclature. The icon looks too much like the fist of Will to Fight… I'd raise its middle finger . No, the icon could be an inscribed ostracon (hence the name), a piece of pottery where the name of the person being voted to be ostracised would be scratched on.

-Athenian Slingers should be Athenian Archers: seems way more appropriate according to records.

-The Hypozomata icon should be changed: and show them instead of an anchor.

-The Parthenon should have eight columns on its front: I understand that this decision could have been taken because of space constraints and simplified representations, but it's a bit shocking to those who have a clear enough idea of what it should look like, since it was not common in mainland Doric temples, making that a big part of its uniqueness. The sides should have 17, but that's much less noticeable.

-The dock's roof and column configuration is wrong: as I've already mentioned somewhere.

-The Merchantman’s eye seems low quality: at least when compared to other ships.

Simple things that could be:

-Economic Reforms could be Seisachtheia (Debt Relief), and Economic Fortune could be Euboikos Stathmos (Euboic Standard): names of actual Solonian reforms, instead of boring Catafalque bonus names. Economic Reforms increases Worker gathering speed, and the seisachtheia, "relief of burdens", were a debt relief set of laws. Economic Fortune cheapens economic techs, and the Euboic weight standard made commerce more competitive.

-Commercial Treaty could be Symbola (Bilateral Treaty): for corresponding Greek civs.

-Delian League civ bonus could be Naucraria (Naucrary): this organisational system would be in place at the start of the game, unlike the Delian League, which was founded in 478 BC, and doesn't sound nice as an Athenian development, but more of a Team Bonus (like the more aptly named Peloponnesian League for the Spartans).

-Triērarchia (Trierarchy) could be a tech for faster ships: the trierarchy (successor of the previous naucrary system) was a public service obligation on the wealthy for the outfitting, maintenance and operation of warships, allowing for their more efficient financing and manning, making ships faster because of outstanding oarsmen, which is important for Athens.

-Periclean Defense Strategy could be Strategic Withdrawal, and Scholarship and the Arts could be either Pentecontaetia or Golden Age: these Pericles Hero bonus names are too long, and unspecific. The first explains what the strategy actually was, and the second refers to either the period of Athenian rise, or the more generic "Golden Age" term, also used for this period.

-Peltast Reforms could be Iphicratids, and for all infantry: this Iphicrates Hero bonus gives Infantry Javelineers +15% movement speed, which comes from a misreading of Diodorus Siculus by the Encyclopædia Britannica. Still, something Iphicrates did do is improve boots of troops in general. It's quite confusing to have Iphicratean Reforms, Peltast Reforms and Formation Reforms, when the first two seem to be the same thing (it's not exactly known what the Iphicratean reforms entailed, if they even happened), I'll return to this later. I'm not sure what Formation Reforms refers to, given that 63 stratagems are attributed to him.

Changes that have been already proposed:

-Conscription at the Stable could be Hippeia (Cavalry Class): already proposed State Weaponry as the Conscription alternative for the Barracks (since "conscription" has modern connotations, and infantry and cavalry weren't "conscripted" in the same way). The cavalry class would involve the wealthiest citizens, linked in turn to cavalry service as an obligation: https://lexarithmos.app/en/lexicon/ippeia.

Other changes that could be considered:

-Naval oriented civs could have Lighthouses, for increased FOV and ship speed bonus: these appeared in the Hellenistic period. In addition, common early buildings that are not being considered are Stadions, Hippodromes, and Gymnasions (beyond the Athenians), just to mention them.

-Tragōidia (Tragedy) and Kōmōidia (Comedy) techs for the Theatre: they were invented around the start of the game. The Spartans could have things like Gymnopaídiai (Gymnopaediae) instead, since they "held mostly non-scenic contests and games", like the "Gymnopaidiai".

-Ohi Peri Ton Dionyson Technitai (Artists of Dionysus) tech for the Theatre: late tech (270s BC), association of artists that coordinated performances. They were also present in Ptolemaic Egypt, Macedon and Thebes, among others.

-Demosthenes' Reforms tech: mid-game tech (340 BC) for cheaper ships. A reform of the trierarchy, which fixed the total number of triremes and distributed costs better.

-Markets could have Aleteia/Letourgia mutually exclusive techs: Aleteia could cheapen Traders, while Letourgia could increase returns per trade, since either rich men have either tax exemptions (to increase commerce, but the state doesn’t get as much per trade), or must contribute (causing the opposite). There should be situational case uses.

-Oligarchy/Demagogy mutually exclusive techs: the first giving a defense bonus, the second an attack bonus.

-Hoplomachia (Weapons Training) could improve hoplite experience gained while garrisoned: mid- to late-game tech, since hoplites in Classical Greece didn't train with weapons (only their bodies), not even the Spartans (or at least there's no evidence for it), the idea being that courage alone was enough (most didn't have free time for it anyway). Weapons training picked up only at the end of the Classical period. Of course others like ranged units are not included in this (I don't know if presently they gain experience by hunting, which would make sense).

-Mediterranean Draw could be a preceding tech for Archery Training, for Greeks: mostly for those who want to add techs in their mods, this draw technique became more standard early in the game's timeframe, although it should improve mediocre archers, not make them better than those from civs where archery was culturally relevant. These things seem a bit out of place in the Forge.

-Chomata (Moles) Dock tech: to increase Dock HP.

-The Gymnasium could be treated quite differently: I wonder what's the reason for having Schytian Archers coming out of this building, Mercenary Camps should be the way to go for mercenaries: Crete, Thrace and Scythia were never really part of the Athenian "empire". I would then relocate the other military units from here to the Barracks, and move Iphicratean Reforms to the Council Chamber. Gymnasia were all around centers of training and study. The Academia of Plato, Lyceum of Aristotle and Kynosarges of Antisthenes were the greatest in Athens. They would mainly have (inside or around) a palaestra (for pankration, etc) and a dromoi (for running, hoplitodromos, etc), which could be damage and speed techs, respectively. Since I think it would be nice for each civ to have a unique limited preferably non-combat unit, like Han Ministers (or Spartan Ephors and Theban Musicians I proposed), Athens could train Philosophers, to give research or culture bonuses or whatever. It was also associated with medical training since the Aleiptae, who oiled and dusted athletes, also acted as surgeons (if eventually actual healers and priests are separated).

-Epibatēs Athēnaios (Athenian Marine) could be Iphikrateios Hoplitēs (Iphicratean Hoplite): contradictorily enough, Athens didn't rely on "marines" for boarding, but on ramming (AI gets easily confused with these things). The word epibatēs is used in general for anyone on deck, and the deck-soldiers were (mostly) hoplites. Iphicratean hoplites is a modern term for something poorly attested that didn't really caught on in mainland Greece then: in principle hoplites were given longer weapons, lighter armor, and smaller shields, and/or (more probably) peltasts were given long spears and more armour, basically producing proto-pikemen, and possibly just for mercenaries in naval service.

-Iphicratean Reforms could be called Arms Reforms, unlock Iphicratean Hoplites, and other effects: this should be the order, and I think these units were had in mind when creating the "Marine". I renamed it because, as mentioned, there's some redundancy around. Iphicratean Hoplites could be trained in Docks and Triremes, given that some think this applied to mercenaries in naval service, after witnessing Egyptian forces possibly using long spears for naval combat. If possible, Thracian Peltasts could gain experience to have the ability to switch to them (maybe too weird to have a mercenary switching to champion), and right now the Athenians don't have a hoplite mercenary force to also do this. If we are to literally believe Siculus (risky), Athenian hoplites would do.

-Epilektos (City Guard) is not characteristically Athenian, while a Fast Ramming Trireme could instead be considered: epilektoi just means "chosen" in armies, and many had them. I know that a ship would be a weird champion unit, and I'll return to this in the corresponding part about ships, although I wish I had better ideas for an Athenian land champion unit, maybe later. The Epilektoi Infantry civ bonus would then be removed, its role taken in part by the Arms Reforms tech.

Other information that could eventually be useful:

-For an Iphicrates javelinmen bonus, "the running Spartans finally gave up and turned around only to have Iphicrates and his crew reverse back into range and take out a few more of them from behind", from Bardunias and Ray Jr.

-For an Iphicrates ship bonus, "not only did Iphicrates improve his oarsmen's fitness but also made his ships go faster", from Gardiner.

-Siege Tower Artillery tech to increase its firepower, not sure about Athens in particular: "the bottom storey (..) is supposed to have accommodated (...) stone-projectors (...) there would have been space for only three, side by side (...) to concentrate heavy firepower at battlement level, where men and masonry were most vulnerable (...) little point in loading artillery in the upper storeys, where its limited angle of depression was a handicap (...) catapults in the third and fourth storeys could have proved useful at long range".

-Bronze Teeth tech for battering ram to add pierce and maybe cut damage, not sure about Athens in particular: "Bronze head (...) late-5th-century (...) five triangular teeth, was perhaps designed to cut into mud-brick", from Campbell.

-For those who want secondary weapons, Scythian archers could also have axes: they were "armed with a composite bow, a dagger and the sagaris, or battle-axe", from Fields.

-Order names for when formations take a bigger role: "Orders for a turn – epistrophe for a 'quarter-turn' or perispasmos for a 'half-turn'", from Dahm.

-To denote rank, maybe I mentioned greaves and cloak, but only the second would be accurate long-term: "Greaves fell out of use before the Peloponnesian War; armour became simpler and the cloak became more common (and was viewed as a symbol of rank in both Athens and Sparta)", from Dahm.

For reference, the preceding Thoughts on the Spartans post:

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/143241-thoughts-on-the-spartans: the comments made for the Spartans on techs from the Civic Centre, House, Dock, Forge, Temple, dropsites and fortifications apply also to the Athenians (in fact, some comments made were indicated not to apply to the Spartans).

I was playing a game on a large map with multiple allies and established trade routes between my market and theirs. It occured to me that it'd be nice if I could select multiple markets for my traders and have them cycle between them. In other words, set up a market, establish an 'origin' (my market) and 'destination' (one of my allies) market but also have my traders stop in at my 3rd ally's market making a circuit so we would all benefit from the trade. I don't know what all would be involved in coding this 'feature' but I wonder if there's any appetite for something like this in the gameplay dynamics?

What do folks think?

kev.

Also what about creating more granular difficulty levels? For example we can lower the very easy to even lower and add some more extreme levels.

Currently the only cheat of Petra is in terms of eco. We can give the extreme levels other cheats such as bonus to atk, unit hp, building hp, unit movement speed, training time discount, projectile accuracy, armour, price discount...

With this version, the goal was to tackle some relatively simple balance changes, some of which have been in high demand. 

• Fanatics HP, hack damage, and hack armor reduced.
• Persian immortal HP reduced (both melee and ranged), ranged version damage and accuracy were reduced.
• Heroes may no longer be used to "bait" enemy units, as Heroes are removed from the preferred target class for all units.
• Champion cavalry and ranged champion cavalry HP reduced from 260->220 and from 220->200, but wood and metal prices were reduced.
• This, combined with speed reduction is intended to bring their population efficiency closer to infantry champions.
• Cavalry speed was reduced by 15%.
• Scout ship counter damage vs ships reduced from 3x to 2.5x, range reduced, and price increased from 50f 50w to 50f 100w.
• Foundation pierce armor increased from 10 to 20. (Foundations take 66% less damage from pierce attacks).
• Capture balance:

1. Civic center capture points increased from 2500 to 3500.
2. Fortress increased from 4000 to 8000.
3. "Sentries" tower upgrade now also increases tower capture points by 50%.
4. "Professional garrisons" fortress upgrade now also doubles fortress capture points.
5. Scipio's Capture attack aura removed.

(See https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/8892 for more.)

• Germans buffs:

1. Champion axeman unit metal cost reduced from 100 to 80.
2. Seeress damage aura range increased from 15 to 20.
3. Seeress armor increased from 2->3 hack armor and 4->6 pierce armor
4. Seeress remain unaffected by blacksmith techs.
5. Wagon encampment price reduced from 350w, 150s to 275w, 100s.

Feel free to see the full changelog in game thanks to @guerringuerrin . As always, please give us some feedback about how these balance changes go.

@real_tabasco_sauce hope it's okay I copypasta your text

Another post in the (somewhat long) list of "stuffs that don't really work in 0 A.D."

On the menu today: trading.

Trading is OK. The intent of trading is that it replaces the gathering in the late game when ressources become scarce and units need to grow more specialized to be cost-effective. But it doesn't really work.

What makes trading wrong?

It's quite simple, really. If you've played any MP game, you'll notice that after a while you just need to pump traders. The best players end up with around 100 traders in a straight line between two markets as far apart as is humanly possible. This is bad for several reasons:

• It looks ridiculous
• It's a pathfinding nightmare
• And it's slow overall, not only on pathfinding
• Distance matters too much
• You need to kill your early citizen soldiers to free pop for traders.
• It's both too hard to raid effectively (too many traders), and too easy to destroy: just raze the market.
• Conceptually is wrong: traders shouldn't create the value, markets should.

But how could we fix this?

I have a simple proposition: switch the resource creation aspect from the traders to the market.

The revamped Market

Markets right now serve only to barter and create merchants and research trade techs. In real-life, markets were often the heart of the economy, something which is just not reflected.

To reflect it, I propose the following changes:

• Markets create resources, with the ratio defined by the trading %. They stockpile those inside themselves, you can't access those resources (but you might loot them, I guess).
• Markets' resource creation rate can be improved by technologies and garrisoning workers inside. This means your early gatherers will not need killing, just move them.
• This resource creation rate is naturally "capped" by the garrisoning and techs required. You need several markets for full efficiency.
• Markets cannot be built too close to each other (<80 meters? 100 meters? Need testing here). This means that having a good trade will require some space.
• Going further, we could have markets' resource creation rate be affected by buildings around: say houses gives +5% (up to +20%), docks give + 50% (but you can't trade at docks, so you need a market next to them - possibly even for sea trade), we could even have specific buildings here: a woodworker, a jeweler... This opens up a ton of interesting economic possibilities, makes it more realistic, and will give your cities a more "live" feeling. It'll feel a lot more like city-building.

The new traders

Traders would have a simpler use:

• They pick up resources at your markets (removing them from your market)
• They trade them at other markets with a multiplier based on distance (and trading with yourself or allies) - but not too big.
• They can still be raided.
• They still don't have a max capacity.

This means that you won't need nearly as many traders: 10/20 at most would be enough to leverage the full efficiency of your markets. The rest of the population will be the workers garrisoned inside the markets. And the rest is free for military units (and/or women working the fields.)

Garrisoning in the market, promotions, and citizen soldiers

One of the thing we wanted in 0 A.D. was give the feeling that citizen soldiers start out as "just a random man of age" that can improve at warfare until he becomes skilled. This doesn't really happen right now. I'm not going to go into the military aspect here (it is interesting and necessary, but for another day).

However, we could make it so that units garrisoned inside the market will "promote" to another type of units when they stay there long enough, to reflect them being better traders/artisans. We could call that unit a "craftsmen" or something, and female would become some variant of that (in some civs, I guess).

"Craftsmen" units would basically be rubbish at attacking and defending (may even not have an attack) but would be more efficient at improving the resource creation rate of the market.

Possibly those would be able to build the special "craft" buildings I mentioned above, and only those. It might need a tech to unlock that, so that only in the late-game will those start appearing. I'm just snowbaling here.

I believe we would need to improve the GUI slightly here, but that should be possible.

Overall

This should have a few simple effects. Players would need to build more markets, making both raiding slightly easier and completely destroying the economy harder. We'd have less of this "straight line caravan" non-sense. It would feel more organic and realistic. It'd be better for gameplay. And we could have interesting new mechanics.

As usual in these kind of posts, I await your thoughts, criticisms and remarks.

Personally, killing pixel-people including pixel-civilians (= genocide) doesn't wake the urge in me to transfer that into real life, but I wondered if you had an opinion about that, maybe changing the default settings to a non-bloody victory condition like a wonder victory?

My idea: what if we could return every ship to the shipyard, garrison it there, and sell it, even for half price?

The same for siege equipment. Why not ? 

This will provide some more possibility to get resources and change the strategy of future battles during the match. 

Your thoughts ? Good ideas ?

In my first skirmish game against the AI (normal difficulty), at some point, without warning, I saw a group of rams heading my way, and no matter what I threw at them (actually everything I had), impossible to do more than scratch their paint... One minute later they had leveled my town...

In subsequent games I lowered the difficulty to "very easy", and discovered that actually you only need rams to win! If it weren't for resources, there would be no need to build anything else. Send half a dozen rams towards the enemy camp (no need to protect them), and watch the onslaught. By the time the enemy has managed to whittle down one or two of them, they have leveled his town. Then just send some troops to mop up the survivors, and that's that.

My point is, aren't 0 A.D. rams a little too overpowered? In AoE rams were vulnerable to infantry, you had to protect them, and make sure they were able to reach their targets and finish their work unmolested. Here they are largely invulnerable. They really make me think of tanks...

So, what am I doing wrong? What's the (apparently non-obvious) way to counter a ram-rush?
(Starting a ram-rush before the opponent isn't a solution. Else this becomes a simple race of "who will build rams first" never mind civilizations and other irrelevant eye candy.)

Now I agree that javelins and slings (or even spears) shouldn't be of much help against a heavy wooden contraption, but still, shouldn't there be a unit which has a special bonus against them, like axemen or some such? Something to slightly bother them while they level your towns?...

Please advise.

LINK: https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26

Following recent & less recent discussions on the forum, the team has a proposal on how to improve balancing that seems viable in the short term. This post will explain the 'what' and 'why'.

What

We will make a copy of the files relevant to balancing (templates, civ data, techs, ...) as of A26's release, and create a new repository on Gitlab. This repository will be bundled as a 'A26 community balance' mod, and regularly signed & uploaded on mod.io by the 0 A.D. team. The mod will also be easily downloadable directly from gitlab.

Community members will be granted commit access to this repository, on a voluntary basis, by 0 A.D. team members. This commit access is subject to the expected rules, such as not trying to mess everyone's work and generally behave productively.
More generally, the mod will be public and anyone can easily make PRs using GitHub/gitlab's interface, and people with commit access will be able to merge PRs.

This mod can then evolve on its own after A26's release, independently of 0 A.D.'s work towards A27.

Why

We agree with you that balancing is a sore point for 0 A.D. The issue is complex, and the team lacks time to fix it. Previous efforts, such as the balancing PM or the balancing subforum, did not work well enough. Furthermore, we receive a lot of feedback from the community on gameplay and would like to give the community a more hands-on approach. There are far more players than team members, and we hope that having more people with commit access will speed things up.

We understand that Phabricator is a little unwieldy. Using a better known tool will also make it easier for people to make changes.
We cannot currently give commit access to the whole SVN repo, nor can we easily split the 0 A.D. mod to make balancing its own repository.
Making more regular releases seems unrealistic at the moment.
Migration to gitlab is also a work in progress.

Therefore, we think this is an easy way to make strides forward while not increasing the workload of the team too much.

By making it a mod that can easily be downloaded, and that's provided by the 0 A.D. team, we can somewhat ensure that the mod will be played, and thus a better product. This also relieves the team of some of the pressure of balancing the release right away, since we know unbalanced units (which are somewhat inevitably discovered after release) can be fixed.

What happens with A27?

This balance mod's scope will not follow potential engine changes in A27, and may not be immediately portable when the time to release comes around. Our hope is that, by comparing the mod with A26, the 0 A.D. team can understand the direction that things should go in and port relevant changes in a coherent manner. This will almost necessarily lead to some changes not being ported, or to some work being necessary to do so.

To summarise: we'll give you the keys to the car to make A26 a more fun game. By the time A27 comes, we can hopefully use your work (and our own) as a good template for a better game out of the box.

If this experiment is a success, we may reproduce it after A27, but time will tell.

---

The repository will be shared around the A26 actual release, to make sure the files are indeed those from A26. In the meantime, feel free to share feedback on the idea and indicate what you'd consider a fitting role for yourself.

Background

@Vantha already reported Issue #8404 back in October:

Quote

The Germans only have 3, while all other civs have at least 8. That's because the game appends (2), (3), (4), ... to names used multiple times, which inevitably happens every time more than 3 bots at once play with the Germans in a match.

Suggestion

Of course we could reuse the Hero names Boiorix, Teutobod und Lugius, but making it more diverse sounds good to me. What do you think?

PART I:

Simple things that should be:

-Tyrtean Paeans should be Tyrtaean Paeans: that’s a typo, and maybe the icon should be different because people will think it’s about some sandal tech. Of course it would be nice somewhere to add a small explanation of things.

-Carrier Pigeons should be Phryctoria: Pigeons were used already by the 8th century BC (there’s a big issue regarding anachronical technologies in general). Systematic fire signaling would have been developed at the time of the game.

-The Loom should be Loom Industry: the Loom has existed for thousands of years, while from the Classical period onwards there’s production on a scale beyond personal needs.

-The Sacrificial Ritual icon should be changed: it’s the same as Kripteia, and shouldn’t seem to represent human sacrifice.

-Spartiates should be Hoplites Spartiates: there could be Spartiates that were too old to be hoplites anymore.

-Embolons should be Three-Finned Embolon: around the time of the start of the game, the triremes and two-pronged bronze rams appear, while the three-finned version appears around 400 BC, a bit more appropriate for such a late tech.

-Gerusia should be Skias: Gerusia was not a building, but a council. They might have met in a Bouleuterion, but anyway, the building has Brasidas, an ephor, and Kripteia, overseen by the ephors, and the ephors formed a council independent from the Gerusia. I think Skias is a better fit since Pausanias says “they have built what is called Scias (Canopy), where even at the present day they hold their meetings of the Assembly”, which was made up of all Spartiates to elect the gerontes and ephors, and ratify their proposals (of course, many things are still discussed by scholars, Sparta is not as well documented as Athens). Figure 6 in https://books.openedition.org/pcjb/7647 shows how it would have looked like (search “Skias et Oikodoméma”).

-Hellenistic Architecture civ. bonus should be Doric Order: it says “the Greeks used stone construction from early Mycenaean times”. This is confusion of the highest order. Those stones (Cyclopean masonry) have nothing to do with Hellenistic architecture, which corresponds to the Hellenistic period, starting with Alexander’s death. Maybe “Hellenic” was meant, referring to the preceding period, but their architecture had little to do with reusing those stones, just mainly for walls. And in any case, Sparta didn’t really reuse them, Athens and others did. To fix this: they had 3 orders of architecture, Doric (appearing before the game starts), Ionic (appearing a bit later) and Corinthian (appearing in the Classical period). Then, Athenians could have a Cyclopean Masonry civ. bonus for cheaper stone walls or something, and with Sparta they should start with a Doric Order civ. bonus (basically the only one Spartans used) for sturdy buildings (they were building temples with wood before that). And that’s it for the Spartans. Others could also have Ionic Order and Corinthian Order techs, but that’s another matter.

-The Spartan Olympic Hoplite should be Hippeus (Royal Guard): this has been proposed already, but I have something to add. Hippeis (I’d add “Royal Guard” as translation), a designation of hundreds, are being ignored in favor of what would have been a handful. Besides, I think this is based on imprecise translations, since I’ve found variations stating either Olympic, great or public games (https://lexundria.com/plut_lyc/22/prr), and the original (https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0007.tlg004.perseus-grc2:22.4) says “a crowned victor of a contest”, only later specifying the Olympics for a particular warrior.

-The Sanctuary of Artemis Orthia should be Athena Chalkioikos: I’m being nitpicky with this one since both were important, but it was Athena, not Artemis, the polyadic (protector) deity of Sparta, and it would be only in the 2nd century AD that her worship would be overshadowed by that of Artemis Orthia (check Guy Dickins’ The Hieron of Athena Chalkioikos). Artemis’ cult could give Spartiates stats enhancement bonus (it was related to the Agoge, and notorious for the diamastigosis, a ritual flagellation event). Athena’s cult was more civil in nature, and could give a metal bonus (apparently related to metal workers, chalkioikos means copper or bronze house, since it had sheets of either inside).

Simple things that could be:

-Cartography could be Geography: cartography has existed for thousands of years, it was geographical knowledge that made maps more precise, and Erathostenes, at the time of the game, was the first to use that word.

-Naupegoi (Shipwrights) could be Neōsoikoi (Shipshed): shipwrights are not new to the time of the game. Spartan shipsheds were probably built at this time, and this would work well for Athens and others also.

-The Persian Stoa could be the Wonder: I’ve read there’s some unused model. Pausanias says “The most striking feature in the Agora is the portico which they call the Persian Stoa, because it was made from spoils taken in the Persian Wars”. Figure 18 in https://books.openedition.org/pcjb/7647 shows a diagram of it.

-Laws of Lycurgus could be Great Rhetra: Great Rhetra is the name of their constitution, the info tip could say it’s the Laws of Lycurgus, as he is already mentioned in other places, like the Catafalque Bonuses icon. It still refers to the thankfully renamed Champion Hoplites and Olympic Champions, thus all this has to be rephrased now.

-Unlock Neodamodeis could be Helot Emancipation: emancipation is how Xenophon constantly describes it. Brasidians was also proposed I think, but that refers only to the Helots that served under Brasidas.

-Lycurgan Military Reforms could appear only once: in Catafalque Bonuses it says 2 times Lycurgan Military Reforms, I’d write it just once, since both are infantry cost bonuses, and could be grouped under the same name. It still refers to Citizen Infantry Spearman and Champion Infantry Spearman.

-Lycurgan Military Reforms could be Melas Zomos: just a detail in line with names "teaching" something interesting, and Lycurgus already appears, as mentioned. The bonus lowers hoplite costs, and melas zomos, or black soup, was the staple of Spartan cuisine, simple and frugal, that other Greeks apparently mocked.

-Ritualistic Exercise (in place of Spartan Women) civ. bonus could be Bibasis: Bibasis was a difficult Spartan dance done by both men and women, and made Spartan women capable of notorious physical feats for which they were very proud of. I meant this for the Spartan Women, but it would work for Citizen-Soldiers also, as referred to now.

Changes that have been already proposed:

-Remove the Theater: something like that was built later in Roman times. Many state that the Skias was the oldest known odeion in ancient Greece (I guess the wooden theater some were mentioning), but this could be a misconception from some Medieval dictionary. A generic Odeion building could be also added, if they’ll eventually do something (cultural buildings and techs could influence expansion and capture times).

-Add Agiads and Eurypontids civ. bonus: although my naming, the ability to train two Heroes at once has been discussed a lot. One of them could be garrisoned for Hero bonuses to work to ensure one king stays in Sparta (it doesn’t matter if non-king Heroes are trained, one can imagine that one has to stay for other reasons). I’m not sure if there’s a problem with regicide mode, losing one of them should be losing, making training an extra one in regicide mode a more dangerous choice. One could get nitpicky about not having 2 kings of the same dynasty at the same time, but that’s too much, why not complain about Han vs Britons then, or training Heroes in the wrong chronological order.

-Add Oliganthropia civ. bonus: reduce maximum population (-10% has been proposed, maybe applied only to Spartiates).

-Revise building availability: I’ve seen discussions regarding the Stables, the Market, the Stone Tower, and the Arsenal, and I also think they should appear later, if even, and with less techs and units. Weak trade and cavalry would be balanced in what follows.

Other changes that could be considered:

-Make the Skias train Ephors: ephors held the real power, they applied the law (applying fines) and oversaw training (checking fitness). Similarly to the Han Ministers, Ephor units could be trained, up to 5, to generate metal and affect stats of units produced from the building they would be garrisoned in. Ephors could balance weak or no trade considering payment in resources (I couldn’t find direct references on sources, but Spartans shunned gold and silver and paid in food and iron, maybe in other resources). Brasidas would be a Hero Ephor, increasing both counts, penalty balanced with the Agiads and Eurypontids civ. bonus. The same could be for Chilon of Sparta, one of the Seven Sages of Greece, although he lived a bit too early for the game.

-Add Skias techs, like Bribe Gerontes and Cleomenes III Reforms: a Bribe Gerontes tech, returning a direct reference to the Gerusia, could make Heroes a bit more powerful (Agesilaus II, a proposed hero, and other kings did it). A late Cleomenes III Reforms tech (introducing him in a way, as proposed) could kill one’s Ephors (a condition could be to have at least 4 of them) in exchange for some mostly military bonus. Bribe Gerontes sounds better as a building ability with a cooldown, if this sort of thing could be even considered.

-Make Skiritae faster and with larger FOV: they were used as hoplites, scouts, sentries, and later on, skirmishers. Some think they just used pelts as armor. Skiritae would then balance a weak cavalry, and everything falls naturally to the Barracks, quite Spartan, a concept someone also proposed.

-Change how units level up: it was confusing for me that units got automatically upgraded to yet another type of infantry, messing up with double-clicking, and having them not really go through all ranks (if I understood correctly how it works, maybe not). I’d only upgrade them when a 4th rank is reached. Also maybe an Hippagretai Chosen tech should be researched first, if upgrading to Hippeis, explaining that this will happen (the 3 Hippagretai chose the 300 Hippeis).

This is long enough for now. I have 8 points already done for Part II, but I’ll need some time to flesh out other things.

You can also look at the tickets which contain many features and improvements that we would like to do. The tickets may not be fully up to date however. http://trac.wildfiregames.com/report/1?sort=ticket&asc=1&page=1

I'm wondering if you think it's a good idea to make it so that a civic center completely surrounded by the enemy should slowly start losing resources (kinda like the city is starving)

Because when Rome was going to capture Carthage; they surrounded the city and attacked only after the city was starving.

This has happened a huge amount of times in history, I only gave one example.

SUMMARY

Swapping unit availability as before doesn't work when units are being trained while their production building loses access to train them. see https://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/6888#

I tested all three cases below and they all work.

Note: Tooltip change and price increase as instant conversion is very strong.